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Guys, I'm going to bow out of this thread. I don't have the stomach for it long term. I'm sorry if I offended anybody. I have strong opinions on this issue, and if you want to throw darts at me after I'm gone, go ahead. I probably deserve it for not remaining polite while expressing my opinions. I'm sure that everybody here is a good person, and if you can come up with a policy for deporting 11 million people that is palatable to the American public, and building a wall, etc. then I'm sure I'll hear about it on the evening news. I guess the final comment I'd like to make, hopefully not offensive, is I've seen this issue from living within many different kinds of communities. I've lived in Latin America, I've lived in a very white state in northern New England (40+ years ago, when there were virtually no immigrants and people were threatened if even one showed up), and I now live a couple of hours away from the Mexican border. People tend to see this issue differently in part depending on where they live and who they associate with. I do agree that the border can't be open, but I also think that as a nation we are dealt a certain hand and have to play it. We share a border of several thousand miles with a country full of people who are trying to get here. My preferred solution is to let more people in legally, with visas that are not permanent. There would be abuse of such a program without question, but in the meantime people would be documented, and in some cases at least, I think that people would return at the end of their visas. The alternative is trying to keep people out, but I don't think that's as realistic as some here do. There are 11 million people here illegally, but they have family ties, work relationships, etc. with many tens of millions more people than that. I don't see their deportation happening without a great deal of civil strife. If you give them amnesty, at least you now know who they are, where they are, etc. as well as you do with any other citizen. Ditto with people who I think should get a visa instead of swimming the Rio Grande. At least you are documenting them. I see that as a realistic solution, not ideal, but realistic. I know some disagree. I know people think that things should be different. Best.
People with no morals, scruples and think that laws don't apply to them will never be convinced not to break the law for their own selfish gain. They don't care how their law breaking affects their victims either. If they don't have a great deal in Mexico where they hold citizenship in then they need to fight for change in Mexico instead of blaming our country for their woes and selfishly harming our own citizens by coming here illegally. As I already pointed out Mexicans and those from other Latino countries already hold the highest quotas for legal immigration into our country. Do they think that all of their needy citizens should be able to come here? What about the rest of the world's needy or don't they count? We have annual quotas for legal immigration for good reasons. Do you not understand why? We cannot be the flop house and employment agency to the whole world's poor citizens. There are and should be limits for the obvious reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
It's interesting that not once have you addressed the issue of NAFTA and Maquiladoras that I brought up. U.S. firms, multi-billion dollar firms, have relocated just across the border and are paying Mexican workers 55 cents an hour to produce goods that YOU buy. Then some poor sap tries to cross the border, and according to you and others on this thread he "lacks a moral compass".
Have you looked in a mirror lately?
Excuse me for being blunt, but now that you've mentioned world citizens, I think you could throw darts at a map of the world, stick a pin in 1,000 random street addresses, tap those people on the shoulder and ask them, "Who lacks a moral compass, the guy crossing a border illegally trying to escape a life of working for 55 cents an hour for multi-billion dollar U.S. firms, or the guy living a middle class life north of the border who is happy to buy cheap goods based on slave labor and who doesn't give a rat's patootie about the lives of the people producing those goods for him?" and you'll find out very quickly who, "lacks a moral compass." Go run to your bathroom now and see if there's a mirror.
But apart from caring about other people, which you should, your plan won't work. It doesn't address the problem. In life, you have to address problems on their terms, not your own. Example 1: You have an abcessed tooth, but you're terrified of the dentist. You either live with the pain or go to the dentist. A solution where the pain goes away, but you don't have to go to the dentist doesn't exist. Example 2: You don't like to pay taxes, but you don't like to go to jail either. You either pay taxes or you go to jail. A solution where you don't pay taxes and don't go to jail doesn't exist. There are millions of similar examples. You are looking for a solution to the immigration problem which doesn't address the economic disparity between Latin America and the United States. That solution doesn't exist. I don't care how many rocks you turn over or how many demagogues you listen to, the situation is what it is. You don't decide who crosses the border, and neither do I. The border crossers do. And I think it's clear what's making them cross: money. If you build a wall, they will tunnel under it. They already are. Listening to Donald Trump makes you feel righteous, but it doesn't solve anything. Nobody in the world except a slice of the Republican electorate takes Donald Trump seriously, and certainly not potential border crossers. "OK, Senor Trump. Build a wall and we'll stay on this side!" Yeah, right.
So, solve the problem on it's terms, not your own. And stop throwing around terms like "no moral compass" because (maybe you'll have to trust me on this one) most people don't look at it the way you do.
OldGlory's 100 percent right. Period.
Too; remember the Berlin Wall? It was deadly effective in keeping East Germans IN; most of us Americans want to keep illegal aliens OUT, especially if our border fortifications were quite "nasty" and our BP had full military power to do what it takes to STOP an illegal from getting in.
Too; remember the Berlin Wall? It was deadly effective in keeping East Germans IN; most of us Americans want to keep illegal aliens OUT, especially if our border fortifications were quite "nasty" and our BP had full military power to do what it takes to STOP an illegal from getting in.
LOL! Berlin Wall was 90 miles long in a urban area, built on surfaced platform.
Southern border is thousands of miles and much of it is a desert without any living creatures for stretches longer than the Berlin Wall.
LOL! Berlin Wall was 90 miles long in a urban area, built on surfaced platform.
Southern border is thousands of miles and much of it is a desert without any living creatures for stretches longer than the Berlin Wall.
Not just the Berlin Wall; how about the old border fence between East and West Germany. Too; deserts can be almost as good as walls because crossers can many times be easy to find and stop.
Guys, I'm going to bow out of this thread. I don't have the stomach for it long term. I'm sorry if I offended anybody. I have strong opinions on this issue, and if you want to throw darts at me after I'm gone, go ahead. I probably deserve it for not remaining polite while expressing my opinions. I'm sure that everybody here is a good person, and if you can come up with a policy for deporting 11 million people that is palatable to the American public, and building a wall, etc. then I'm sure I'll hear about it on the evening news. I guess the final comment I'd like to make, hopefully not offensive, is I've seen this issue from living within many different kinds of communities. I've lived in Latin America, I've lived in a very white state in northern New England (40+ years ago, when there were virtually no immigrants and people were threatened if even one showed up), and I now live a couple of hours away from the Mexican border. People tend to see this issue differently in part depending on where they live and who they associate with. I do agree that the border can't be open, but I also think that as a nation we are dealt a certain hand and have to play it. We share a border of several thousand miles with a country full of people who are trying to get here. My preferred solution is to let more people in legally, with visas that are not permanent. There would be abuse of such a program without question, but in the meantime people would be documented, and in some cases at least, I think that people would return at the end of their visas. The alternative is trying to keep people out, but I don't think that's as realistic as some here do. There are 11 million people here illegally, but they have family ties, work relationships, etc. with many tens of millions more people than that. I don't see their deportation happening without a great deal of civil strife. If you give them amnesty, at least you now know who they are, where they are, etc. as well as you do with any other citizen. Ditto with people who I think should get a visa instead of swimming the Rio Grande. At least you are documenting them. I see that as a realistic solution, not ideal, but realistic. I know some disagree. I know people think that things should be different. Best.
Your solution is no solution for the American people. Where would we get the jobs and resources to take in any more immigrants legally? You didn't address that aspect. We tried amnesty back in 1986 and now we have at least quadruple the number of illegals here. Granting amnesty only encourages more to come to get in on the next amnesty. When does it end.....when we have all of Mexico's and the rest of Latin American's poor and needy within our borders? Surely you can see that would be committing national suicide. I don't understand why you have no compassion for our own unemployed, poor and needy who are being negatively impacted by illegal immigration.
There was to be a double layered wall erected on only 700 miles of our most porous border not the entire border. The Border Patrol can take care of the rest. It was already approved by congress but not yet funded.
We are speaking in generalities, so I dint know how I am wrong when it's my anecdotal data against yours. I have not personally seen that problem, there are no flophouses or anchor babies crowding the schools where i live, I have not lost my job to illegals, in my experience they bring diversity , I can see how they can depress wages for low skill labor i am sympathetic to that but it doesn't affect me, I also yet to see any data showing that illegals commit crimes at a higher rate than American citizens of the same socioeconomic level.
It takes a lack of a moral compass and selfishness to break laws and by doing so it negatively impacts others. You've got the victim hat on the wrong head. Just because in your neck of the woods you don't see the things that are easily verified elsewhere doesn't make them untrue. You're lucky you haven't lost your job to an illegal alien but does that mean you have no compassion for the Americans who have such as in the construction industry just for starters just because it doesn't affect you personally?
No, illegal aliens coming from mostly one country and ethnic group is not diversity. We are already quite diversified in this country anyway. Doesn't matter if illegals commit crimes at a lower rate or not. None of their crimes would have been committed if they didn't come here. We have enough of our own law breakers to deal with we shouldn't have to deal with the crimes of illegal foreigners also.
Not just the Berlin Wall; how about the old border fence between East and West Germany. Too; deserts can be almost as good as walls because crossers can many times be easy to find and stop.
Not deserts the size of some nations.And bigger than many US states.
Your solution is no solution for the American people. Where would we get the jobs and resources to take in any more immigrants legally? You didn't address that aspect. We tried amnesty back in 1986 and now we have at least quadruple the number of illegals here. Granting amnesty only encourages more to come to get in on the next amnesty. When does it end.....when we have all of Mexico's and the rest of Latin American's poor and needy within our borders? Surely you can see that would be committing national suicide. I don't understand why you have no compassion for our own unemployed, poor and needy who are being negatively impacted by illegal immigration.
No matter how many times we explain it, they don't listen. They still talk about rounding up illegals, when that isn't even necessary. I don't get why they willfully ignore the fact that making E-verify the law of the land and screening out illegals in the work force, doing away with anchor babies/birth tourism babies, etc. will go a long way to getting illegals to leave on their own.
No matter how many times we explain it, they don't listen. They still talk about rounding up illegals, when that isn't even necessary. I don't get why they willfully ignore the fact that making E-verify the law of the land and screening out illegals in the work force, doing away with anchor babies/birth tourism babies, etc. will go a long way to getting illegals to leave on their own.
Oldglory---If I could rep you again, I would.
IMHO most of the posters who say we "can't" round up illegal aliens AND won't say "boo" about us antis bringing up E verify, ending birthright, allowing the cops to bust ANY probable illegal on sight, sealing off at least Mexico and so on; those posters WANT illegals to stay in the US for whatever the reason.
I say "Mexico" because we get few few illegals out of Canada.
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