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Old 02-07-2008, 07:12 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,968,767 times
Reputation: 559

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
The "American people" didn't stop anything, talk radio and their followers just bullied spineless politicians into not voting for cloture. The politicians thought these callers had strong voting power BUT they will now realize talk radio and their followers are all bark and no bite.
You've heard that in the liberal media - do you believe that? Of course, they'd say it was conservative talk radio - it's an easy target to blame. But, it's not true.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:35 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,793,137 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloTransplant View Post
Are you an illegal, blackknight? If not, are you an employer of illegals? If not either, are you simply crazy?

Open the floodgates as you would want and this country changes demographics in a short time and probably forever. It gives any of the top 3 (mcCain, obama or hillary) a totally beholden constituency.

Illegals no. Legal immigration yes.

Don't assume people don't want immigrants. Don't assume it was the media that created the stop of the amnesty bill. It took PEOPLE to get totally ticked off to stop the bill. We need to get back at it so in both conventions, it will radically change the platforms.
If not, everyone better be voting for every other candidate who is anti-immigration, anti-amnesty, anti-nanny state... etc.

People who gloat as you are doing should be ashamed.
The People didn't stop any bill, it was talk radio and their fringe vocal followers who bullied spineless politicians. Sooner or later congress has to pass a bill and as long as a dem president and democrats are in control, expect some form of legalization and guest worker program.

Btw, majority of americans are sensible and moderate about immigration reform, they don't take a hardline as you guys do.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:55 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,731,841 times
Reputation: 22159
If it comes down to McCain vs Obama -- I'm going with Obama.

Obama would obviously be less in the pocket of the Mexican government and not as beholding to the Mexican citizens who demand they be exempt from American laws or expected to follow only the laws they find convenient.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:51 AM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,740 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
as long as a dem president and democrats are in control, expect some form of legalization and guest worker program.
I find it odd that you attribute legalization and guest worker programs to the Democrats.

Those policies are traditional Republican policies, formulated, proposed and enacted by Republicans.

Where do you get the idea that you can attribute those policies to the Democrats when they aren't policies promoted by most Democrats?

The guest worker program is Bush's proposal and legalization was voted down by the Democrats.

Even Tancredo knows who voted for what...

Quote:
Congressman Tom Tancredo: Unfortunately, this has to be our last question. Let me briefly address the issue of making illegal presence in the U.S. a felony.

The truth is Democrats voted for the felony provision, and a majority of Republicans (including me) voted against it.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:08 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,063,749 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I find it odd that you attribute legalization and guest worker programs to the Democrats.

Those policies are traditional Republican policies, formulated, proposed and enacted by Republicans.

Where do you get the idea that you can attribute those policies to the Democrats when they aren't policies promoted by most Democrats?

The guest worker program is Bush's proposal and legalization was voted down by the Democrats.

Even Tancredo knows who voted for what...


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Finally, something we agree on.

Illegal immigration is decidely conservative, on the fiscal/business end. On the social end, it is not.

Though bleeding-hearts are generally liberal, traditional American liberals would staunchly oppose illegal immigration. The traditional liberal viewpoint is pro-labor. I'm amazed at those pro-illegals who call themselves liberal, seeing that they are in bed with the enemy: Capital. Oh...and in bed with...watch out...duck!...GW Bush.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Northern VA (for now)
23,010 posts, read 31,972,945 times
Reputation: 30405
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
If it comes down to McCain vs Obama -- I'm going with Obama.

Obama would obviously be less in the pocket of the Mexican government and not as beholding to the Mexican citizens who demand they be exempt from American laws or expected to follow only the laws they find convenient.
ditto. McCain seems like George W. Bush 2nd edition. Obama at least i agree on a FEW issues.

if it's McCain vs. Hiliary, i aint voting.

Our only hope is to vote for the right senators or house members.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:49 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,740 times
Reputation: 107
It makes little difference what people call themselves or what they get called.

The labels generally affixed have little or no meaning.

Those who like to affix labels have little or no knowledge of what the labels they use really mean.

Like those who are constantly trying to call Democratic National Party Democrats liberals, ....they aren't liberals.

I don't think they're even left of center anymore. They're moderates at best.

...but nowdays, anyone who isn't a dyed in the wool, rabid neoconservative, they are automatically labeled as liberals,

....when the truth is they aren't anywhere near being liberals.

The whole political spectrum has shifted to the right and there aren't but a handful of liberals left anywhere.

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Old 02-07-2008, 12:57 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,793,137 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I find it odd that you attribute legalization and guest worker programs to the Democrats.

Those policies are traditional Republican policies, formulated, proposed and enacted by Republicans.

Where do you get the idea that you can attribute those policies to the Democrats when they aren't policies promoted by most Democrats?

The guest worker program is Bush's proposal and legalization was voted down by the Democrats.

Even Tancredo knows who voted for what...


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The democrats had a reason for voting for that provision, they knew without that provision, the bill would pass in the senate. So they poisoned the whole bill. Btw, democrats didn't offer that ammendment, A republican did.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:38 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,740 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
The democrats had a reason for voting for that provision, they knew without that provision, the bill would pass in the senate. So they poisoned the whole bill. Btw, democrats didn't offer that ammendment, A republican did.
So you accept the spin narrative that the Democrats 'poisoned' their own position?

....you're going to have to try something that at least touches upon some small fragment of logic, because first you say it's the Democrats proposals, and then you say they poisoned their own position.

That spin didn't make sense when it was proferred, ....and it makes no sense today.....

I suspect you should review all the proposals and the amendments, when you're doing that, evaluate the moves without looking to someone else to provide spin, look instead at what the actual votes show...

...you want to know who proposed what and who voted for what, right?

Go back to the start, read what was proposed and who proposed it.

You aren't going to find that out by listening to someone who wants you to think only in their terms, ...you have to analyse things for yourself.

It doesn't sound like you've done that, ....you've offered only the trite talking points and spin.

That's why most of the 'popular' narrative strays so far from the actual reality....
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:06 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,793,137 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
So you accept the spin narrative that the Democrats 'poisoned' their own position?

....you're going to have to try something that at least touches upon some small fragment of logic, because first you say it's the Democrats proposals, and then you say they poisoned their own position.

That spin didn't make sense when it was proferred, ....and it makes no sense today.....

I suspect you should review all the proposals and the amendments, when you're doing that, evaluate the moves without looking to someone else to provide spin, look instead at what the actual votes show...

...you want to know who proposed what and who voted for what, right?

Go back to the start, read what was proposed and who proposed it.
`You aren't going to find that out by listening to someone who wants you to think only in their terms, ...you have to analyse things for yourself.

It doesn't sound like you've done that, ....you've offered only the trite talking points and spin.

That's why most of the 'popular' narrative strays so far from the actual reality....
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The democrats weren't in control of congress back then. They had no say in what bills were voted on, that bill was a republican sponsored bill.
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