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Old 02-07-2008, 10:24 PM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
You could, but Zack goes a bit farther and attributes all those myths to one group.....

Which would only invalidate your earlier argument that making generalizations wasn't something you condoned....

(not to mention you failed to address any other point I mentioned, .....must have been inadvertent, eh?)
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Please show me where he attributes all those quotes to a single organization. Maybe I am missing it. I did a quick search on his article useing the word "group" and most every hit was a plural "groups". Those that refered to a singular "group" were mentioning a specific item.

I can refer to the "groups" of JFK conspiracy theorists and not mean that they all believe the same thing.



As an example the first 3 times he uses the word group are as follows

1) “Propaganda that was once considered at a minimum foolish and at worst the racist spouting of Mexican hate-groups (like Mecha and Mexica, and a lesser extent La Raza) is now given an air of legitimacy in many places. “

In this example he is talking about a specific part of the “propaganda”. NOT all “propaganda” that he believes is said. Thus he is not painiting all groups with believing all the argument he attempts to debunk. Likewise he says these are the three groups that believe this, NOT that all groups believe this.



2) “You should always be skeptical when any groups says that its people were in a place long ago, therefore they get to occupy it.”
Once again he does not say all groups believe this but to be aware that those groups that do are flawed.

This is the same as if I said
“You should always be skeptical when a JFK Conspiracy groups says that Oswald was a Russian agent.”
It in no way implies that all JFK Cons believe the Russian agent conspiracy theory



Next

3) “Such is the claim of (for example) the rightwing racist group La Voz de Aztlan,”

He is referring to a specific group believing ONE of the points he attempts to refute.



As I said, Some of his beliefs are nuttier then the Fruitcake my aunt gave me. Yet it's a logical falacy to disreguard all of his points just because some are wrong. At the very least pick out his worst arguments and show some of his errors.



Random U

Last edited by RandomU; 02-07-2008 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:12 PM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
You could, but Zack goes a bit farther and attributes all those myths to one group.....

Which would only invalidate your earlier argument that making generalizations wasn't something you condoned....

(not to mention you failed to address any other point I mentioned, .....must have been inadvertent, eh?)
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Here a response to the rest ince you asked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
Ah, there it is again, 'the pro-illegal' side.

I've only seen a couple of people here openly advocate what might be considered a 'pro-illegal' stance.
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Most of the people I see who are labeled as 'pro-illegal' haven't ever advocated anything of the sort, yet the labeling, the generalization is bandied about as if it's not anything that can be questioned.
Whats to address? You admit there are such people. Thats what he says.


Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
Just like trying to generalize about Mexicans, or any other class of people, making generalizations and attributing all the same characteristics to disparate peoples is more of that 'loony' stuff you speak of.

Just as all the people who are labeled anti aren't all in agreement about various points, not all people who are labeled pro have all the same attributes.
I responded to that in the last post and asked you where he says that a single organization believes all those things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
But that seems to be lost on people, .....kind of like when they say they don't make racial stereotypes..... (often right before or after posting one)......
In my first post I said I thought he might be Racist, did you want me to say it again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
Zack Smith's basic premise is that there is some 'pro-illegal' group which has all the same attributes.....

....that's laughably moronic.

He's created a paper tiger of all inclusive proportions not replicated anywhere in any reality he can cite....

....just as many here do the same.

He is not. He continually uses the word "GROUPS" plural, and refferes to individual "GROUPS" singular by name. Likewise he lists multiple groups and attributes different beliefs to each one.

The rest of your statments seem to fit into a "He is grouping them all as one." which I have allready addressed.


Random U
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:17 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,912 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
Please show me where he attributes all those quotes to a single organization.
You misunderstand, I don't say he attributes those quotes about each of his supposed 'myths' to one group,

...what he does advance is that this undefined 'group' called pro-illegals all have the same beliefs when it comes to these myths he talks about.

Here is his basic premise:

Quote:
Advocates for allowing more Mexicans to immigrate illegally and legally to the USA have a battery of myths, bad arguments and outright lies -- in a word propaganda -- that they use to further their cause.
His clearly stated premise or assumption is that all advocates for allowing more Mexicans to immigrate legally or illegally use these arguments to advance their 'cause'.

That's totally inane, for more than just a couple of reasons...



First, he tries to conflate a whole class of people who aren't in agreement with believing or advancing some set of myths he holds up to be knocked down.

Sure, he can probably find some people who have advanced some of those ideas, but it's ludicrous to assign that to anyone he chooses to place in both a 'pro-illegal' and a 'pro-legal' position.

If he's only referring to those who have some belief in any one or many of his so-called myths, he should attempt to identify who those people are.

As it is, he just advances a supposition that these are myths that need be debunked that all 'pro-illegals' and all 'pro-legals' buy into.

Even if someone is a 'pro-illegal', he offers no evidence that each and every one of those people buy into any or all of those so called myths.

And it's a sure bet that people who are 'pro-legal' don't have to, or need to buy into, or wield any of those 'myths'.

I've not denied that he's maybe described some people correctly, but his premise is too broad and that's where his credibility starts to break down.

As to verifying each of his 'claims' as far as what's myth and what's reality, on a quick review, some of his 'evidence' is not undisputable.

I'll not bother with each and every one of his scattershot issues, I only need point out that his basic premise is not without fault.

It's obvious he hopes to make one think he's covered all the possible questions by his inclusion of every conspiracy theory ever remotely touched upon, but that's just a stylistic concern.

In the end, he makes assumptions and suppositions every bit as disingenuous as what he tries to assign to others.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:25 PM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
You misunderstand, I don't say he attributes those quotes about each of his supposed 'myths' to one group,

...what he does advance is that this undefined 'group' called pro-illegals all have the same beliefs when it comes to these myths he talks about.

Here is his basic premise:

"Advocates for allowing more Mexicans to immigrate illegally and legally to the USA have a battery of myths, bad arguments and outright lies -- in a word propaganda -- that they use to further their cause."


His clearly stated premise or assumption is that all advocates for allowing more Mexicans to immigrate legally or illegally use these arguments to advance their 'cause'.

That's totally inane, for more than just a couple of reasons...


He does not say ALL. You say that.

If I say "Advocates for JFK Conspiracy have a battery of myths, bad arguments and outright lies..."

That does not mean they ALL believe ALL the same myths as you are saying. Especially if later on I attribute the myths to different groups as he does.


To give you another example,

"African Americans suffer a battery of problems in the USA..... Poverty is far higher among blacks then whites..... Blacks in the south have suffered gererations of oppresion..... Blacks in NY have difficulty flagging down Taxis."

Note that I started out with covering all African Americans yet I doubt anyone would have a problem nor critisize my doing so since I never said ALL African Americans have ALL the same problems."

This seems to be your objection to the article and it doesn't hold water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
If he's only referring to those who have some belief in any one or many of his so-called myths, he should attempt to identify who those people are.
He does identify some, Read the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
Even if someone is a 'pro-illegal', he offers no evidence that each and every one of those people buy into any or all of those so called myths.
He never says all of them do, yet given his long list I doubt there are many if ANY significant organizations who don't espouse one or more of those "myths". Can you show me an orgnization that doesn't believe in at least one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I'll not bother with each and every one of his scattershot issues, I only need point out that his basic premise is not without fault.
You haven't bothered with a SINGLE one let alone "each and every one" so what it comes down to is you don't like what he says yet can give no evidence to the contrary. Surely you can do better then this. At least SHOW the fault.


Random U

Last edited by RandomU; 02-07-2008 at 11:45 PM..
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:49 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,912 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
To give you another example,

"African Americans suffer a battery of problems in the USA..... Poverty is far higher among blacks then whites..... Blacks in the south have suffered gererations of oppresion..... Blacks in NY have difficulty flagging down Taxis."

Note that I started out with covering all African Americans yet I doubt anyone would have a problem nor critisize my doing so since I never said ALL African Americans have ALL the same problems."

This seems to be your objection to the article and it doesn't hold water.


Random U
What I note is that your 'example' doesn't stray into any stereotypical 'myths' that may or may not be disputed. What you call 'problems' is not similar to saying all people of any certain class all use myths to advance a 'cause'....

Nope, you didn't say 'all' had the same problems,(as you typified things), but you also didn't offer anything that isn't generally applicable and easily documented. These 'problems' you cite don't equate to say, popular myth, about a group's characteristics. Your 'problems' are outside influences that it can be said to work upon a group or affect a group.

Your example is not similar enough to what Zack states as his premise. His premise assigns shared qualities or characteristics, either wholly or in part, to a whole group of poorly defined people, .....not outside influences upon an identifiable group.

Your example isn't descriptive of the same circumstance...
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:58 PM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
Reputation: 111
I assume you concede these points since you fail to respond.

That he DOES identify some of the groups and the "myths" some of them believe.

And that you have yet to show any evidence any of his asertions are wrong. Come on thats the easy one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
What I note is that your 'example' doesn't stray into any stereotypical 'myths' that may or may not be disputed. What you call 'problems' is not similar to saying all people of any certain class all use myths to advance a 'cause'....

Nope, you didn't say 'all' had the same problems,(as you typified things), but you also didn't offer anything that isn't generally applicable and easily documented. These 'problems' don't equate to say, popular myth about a group.

Your example is not similar enough to what Zack states as his premise. His premise assigns qualities or characteristics, not outside influences upon an identifiable group.

Your example isn't descriptive of the same circumstance...
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He never said ALL. SHOW ME WHERE HE SAYS THAT.



Those statements I made ARE disputed. (Note I don't dispute them but some people do.) By your logic those people would be perfectly correct in disreguarding my entire paper since they feel at least ONE of those statements can be disputed. Thats rediculious

Note that not all African Americans groups suffer all these problems and SOME African American groups suffer none of these problems.


If you truley feel that his statement is not the same as mine then take the JFKone I have given several times which is spot on the same.

Random U

Last edited by RandomU; 02-08-2008 at 12:14 AM..
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:10 AM
 
1,252 posts, read 726,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
I assume you concede my point that he never said ALL since you fail to respond?
I quoted the author, his premise clearly is inclusive of the same group whether you say 'all' or not....


Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
Those statements I made ARE disputed. (Note I don't dispute them but some people do.) By your logic those people would be perfectly correct in disreguarding my entire paper since they feel at least ONE of those statements can be disputed. Thats rediculious
I do note that you don't dispute those outside influences on your identified group.

It makes little difference if someone wants to dispute those points, they are still influences that work upon that group and they are not qualities or characteristics you're trying to assign to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
Note that not all African Americans groups suffer all these problems and SOME African American groups suffer none of these problems.
Big whoop, all people suffer some problem because of outside influences outside of their control.

That's a far cry from trying to assign qualities, beliefs, or characteristics of behavior to whole classes of people.

All people don't think or act alike, (even if some do have a herd mentality..)
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:28 AM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I quoted the author, his premise clearly is inclusive of the same group whether you say 'all' or not....
I disagree, in the same manner sort of phrase can be used about JFK Conspiracy people and still apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I do note that you don't dispute those outside influences on your identified group.

It makes little difference if someone wants to dispute those points, they are still influences that work upon that group and they are not qualities or characteristics you're trying to assign to them.



Big whoop, all people suffer some problem because of outside influences outside of their control.

That's a far cry from trying to assign qualities, beliefs, or characteristics of behavior to whole classes of people.

All people don't think or act alike, (even if some do have a herd mentality..)
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If you feel the AA example is not valid then go for the JFK. Thats pretty spot on. Or try this one.

"Advocates for the Republican Party have a battery of myths, bad arguments and outright lies -- in a word propaganda -- that they use to further their cause......Abortion is Wrong......Guns belong in the hands of the people.......Lower Governement spending is good......Family values are important.....War in Iraq is good......Illegal Imigration Bad.... Death Penalty Good.....God is Great.........Drugs Bad......Clinton Evil....... and so on for 40 more items"

While the opening statement is inflamatory, some of those things listed as well as the other 40 are part of any Republicans belief.

Additionally you have yet to show an organization that doesn't believe one of those examples, thus it MAY just be that he is right even if you subscribe to your belief that he implies ALL.


Random U

Last edited by RandomU; 02-08-2008 at 01:11 AM..
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:44 AM
 
307 posts, read 458,423 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I quoted the author, his premise clearly is inclusive of the same group whether you say 'all' or not....

..


Please note even if you feel he means ALL To disproove what you feel is his contention you must find a group that doesn’t believe any of the following…


Mexicans do jobs that Americans won't, therefore there is no harm to Americans.

Illegal Mexicans workers are good for the US economy.

Mexicans can become model citizens.

Illegal immigrants work hard and therefore deserve free health care and their children deserve free education and citizenship

Mexico and USA can benefit one another through immigration of Mexican to the USA.

Mexicans are just victims who need our help.

If you take the Mexicans away, the tourism and agriculture industries will collapse.

Mexicans deserve humane treatment when trying to illegally enter into the USA.

As well as 40 or so other "myths".

I’d love to see such a Pro Immigration group who doesn’t believe in one of the above or the others he has listed. Heck I believe some of those statements and I am anti illegal immigration. (As I said he's a bit of loon in some areas.) The only person I can concieve who would not agree with at least one of those "myths" is would be an anti imigration extremist .


Feel free to post their website I REALLY want to see it. and no fare for anyone to create one.


Random U

Last edited by RandomU; 02-08-2008 at 12:54 AM..
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,637,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by User 2 View Post
I see you still can't or don't choose to address the topic at hand, all you have is your case that you can marginalize others.....

Waaaaah....
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Face it: few of us take what you have to say seriously anymore-------those of us who do not have you on 'Ignore'.
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