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Old 02-22-2008, 01:36 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,061,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc0127 View Post
Well how are they supposed to know they're illegal?
Ask the border patrol. Do you think those people jumping fences are legal immigrants? Are they just taking a shortcut?

 
Old 02-22-2008, 01:42 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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''That is the legally recognized term for someone who comes into the country without permission. I'm sorry you don't like the way it sounds, take it up with Webster's.''

I'm not arguing what it is technically. I'm simply saying it's something that people don't say and when people do say - it draws an awkward silence. That could be different for where you live though. As I said before, I lived in New Jersey. It's just not what we do here. Maybe it sounds better over there, but to myself - it sounds unintelligent and stupid. If you want to use it - go ahead, but I'm not going to.

''I don't know where you got that idea, but if you have a source for it I'd be interested in seeing it.''

Okay, now you're just getting irritable. That'd be like me saying there are more people without health insurance than with it. It's common knowledge. The fact that they're labeled illegal immigrants denotes the fact that we can't even statistically keep track of the illegal immigrants. I'm not going to sit here and argue that there are more legal immigrants than illegal ones, because it's obvious. Mexican immigrants are more than half the immigrants in this country, but no where near all. As far as physically crossing the border goes (as I don't think Canadians would do that or even want to live in our country), it'd be almost impossible for the other half to be illegal. That would prove my point immediately. I do acknowledge that not renewing visas is a problem for all immigrants, but most immigrants do this the right way - just like how most Americans pay car insurance.

This all depends on how you look at it though. Some Americans are dumb enough to believe people are digging underground holes more than they are flying on a plane and not renewing their visa. I know that illegal immigration is more common amongst Mexicans, but I still don't acknowledge this as anywhere near the majority. I wouldn't even know how to debate this because acquiring a legitimate and accurate statistic for illegal immigrants nonetheless groups within that would be difficult because they're undocumented.

''According to the US Border Patrol we've got about 4 million a year that cross the border illegally.''

Well, than they must really suck at their jobs lol So what do they watch people cross in a chair and tally them up without even trying to stop them? Come on. I don't trust half of what they give us. Cities need to take a bigger responsibility at finding these people. They need to say no to their children going to school. It's just common sense that being undocumented couldn't exist if they're acknowledged human-beings. It's kind of like the teenage girl who gets an abortion who thinks her parents don't know - even though it's obviously physically detectable and would should up on their insurance report.

I'll look more into the statistics, but I do agree that illegal immigrants are significant in this country. I think people are just exaggerating about this. Mexican immigrants are not the only illegal ones, regardless of reasoning. Especially in New Jersey. Mexican immigrants really aren't much different than any other Latin American immigrant in this state. They don't come at an overwhelming rate and this state is over-expensive. However, in the southwest they probably are almost every illegal immigrant. They don't see themselves as ''illegal'' though. I think this distaste that Americans are taking towards this is really souring the ties between these immigrants and Americans. People might blame the immigrants for crossing the border, but I would rather blame the government for allowing this. And especially the border patrol that magically chooses to watch, yet not do. Regardless, I think it's safe to say we need plenty more border patrol.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 01:43 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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''Ask the border patrol. Do you think those people jumping fences are legal immigrants? Are they just taking a shortcut?''

Well, I'd rather ask them why they didn't stop them. I'm not saying this doesn't exist, but legal immigration means more to this country.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 01:53 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Asking us to adapt to their language is indeed challenging this country's culture.

Huh? What on earth are you saying?

Whose macho ego? Machismo is a cultural aspect of Latin America. Are you speaking of them?

''Asking us to adapt to their language is indeed challenging this country's culture.''


Well sure it would, but that isn't what I implicated. Who said they're asking us though? The only people they're asking for help are people who already speak the language, who usually similarly to them are immigrants or have parents as immigrants. The big problem for them is that there they don't know all the time who speaks it and who doesn't. The service should be a privilege, not a requirement. They're not begging or crying for it. They're getting pampered with it. And so many people believe that if that was revoked, they'd freak out. How do we know how they'd react though? And would it matter? The problem is that too many people who already are bilingual and primary English-speaking cater to these immigrants by speaking their language. If they just pretended not to speak their language, maybe they'd have no other choice to assimilate.

''Huh? What on earth are you saying?

Whose macho ego? Machismo is a cultural aspect of Latin America. Are you speaking of them?''

Well, it's apart of both societies - and definitely their's more than ours, but I was referring to Americans. I should have used a different adverb, but couldn't think of anything else off the top of my head. Perhaps thinking of Latin America made me use that lol Basically what I meant was that if you're standing on line in a store and you can't speak Spanish and the customer ahead of you is speaking Spanish - many Americans don't like this. They feel that its either disrespectful or inappropriate. They get anxieties like ''Are they talking bad about me behind my back?'' It makes them feel little to not understand what someone else is saying. I said ''macho'' because typically from a man's point of view they don't like being belittled.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 01:56 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,061,455 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc0127 View Post
I'm not arguing what it is technically. I'm simply saying it's something that people don't say and when people do say - it draws an awkward silence. That could be different for where you live though. As I said before, I lived in New Jersey. It's just not what we do here. Maybe it sounds better over there, but to myself - it sounds unintelligent and stupid. If you want to use it - go ahead, but I'm not going to.
Determing speech by others' reactions and "how it sounds" may not necessarily be unintelligent, but it is certainly naive.

"But to myself..." Now that sounds unintelligent. "But to me..." is the correct usage. Should grammar be dictated by "what sounds good" as well? (I'm not trying to be the grammar police, but you are the one arguing terminology.)
 
Old 02-22-2008, 01:59 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,061,455 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc0127 View Post
Well, it's apart of both societies - and definitely their's more than ours, but I was referring to Americans. I should have used a different adverb, but couldn't think of anything else off the top of my head. Perhaps thinking of Latin America made me use that lol Basically what I meant was that if you're standing on line in a store and you can't speak Spanish and the customer ahead of you is speaking Spanish - many Americans don't like this. They feel that its either disrespectful or inappropriate. They get anxieties like ''Are they talking bad about me behind my back?'' It makes them feel little to not understand what someone else is saying. I said ''macho'' because typically from a man's point of view they don't like being belittled.
"Are they talking bad about me behind my back?'' would indicate paranoia, not machismo. Your clarification makes as little sense as the original claim.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 02:00 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sorry, but "illegal alien" is a perfectly respectable legal term, and the term "alien" has been around in reference to citizenship issues since LONG before the first "Space Movie" was ever thought of. There are "legal aliens" (aka "Resident Aliens"), as well as "illegal" aliens....

True, many of us HAVE 'softened' the term a bit, to "illegal immigrant"...but REALLY, that's just 'window dressing', in the interest of P.C. 'politeness'...in actual fact, all "PC" aside, an "illegal immigrant" is no more an IMMIGRANT than a shoplifter ("non-paying customer') is a SHOPPER.....or a trespasser (an 'uninvited guest') is a HOUSEGUEST. We say "illegal immigrant' so as not to sound MEAN...but the correct term is still "Alien", which is simply the legal term for "one who is not a citizen" (even if he IS legally living here)...

Just one more concession to "PC"....no different from calling a violent bully a "Guy with anger-management issues"....And, isn't it the SUPREME ironic 'twist' that the euphemism. "illegal IMMIGRANT" has now been used to give these folks the illusion of legitimacy that THEN is used to assign them illusory, non-existent "rights'...like the "right", (Ironically) NOT to be called an
"Alien", which, legally, is what they ARE. Sometimes being "nice" comes back to BITE one !...
''Sorry, but "illegal alien" is a perfectly respectable legal term, and the term "alien" has been around in reference to citizenship issues since LONG before the first "Space Movie" was ever thought of. There are "legal aliens" (aka "Resident Aliens"), as well as "illegal" aliens....''

Okay, like I said - I'm not disputing that. That's why it's not worth debating. You're right. I came off with it the wrong way. I was simply saying implying that people don't use it and that it doesn't sound good. However, you're right - it's technically fine. I'm just saying it doesn't sound good which is why most don't use it. If you were an employee of the government, than it might be more used. However, I doubt I'd hear that term magically pop up in a Burger King or something. Especially in the northeast. I don't live where all of you live so it's possible you might have a different way of looking at this though.

''True, many of us HAVE 'softened' the term a bit, to "illegal immigrant"...but REALLY, that's just 'window dressing', in the interest of P.C. 'politeness'...in actual fact, all "PC" aside, an "illegal immigrant" is no more an IMMIGRANT than a shoplifter ("non-paying customer') is a SHOPPER.....or a trespasser (an 'uninvited guest') is a HOUSEGUEST. We say "illegal immigrant' so as not to sound MEAN...but the correct term is still "Alien", which is simply the legal term for "one who is not a citizen" (even if he IS legally living here)...'

Pretty much what I been saying too. I agree. People want to say more nice which is why it's used less. It doesn't mean the definition has changed though. Sadly, that problem actually does more bad than good because it confuses them with legal immigrants. It is coming back to bite us, because it both confuses Americans and could taint the good reputation of a legal immigrant.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 02:06 PM
 
Location: At Sea....and Midwest....
272 posts, read 715,200 times
Reputation: 161
Having small municipalities unilaterally 'declare' any language other than American Standard English the "official" language of their particular town is a bad idea and sets a really disturbing president....
By this logic....every 'china town' in the US can declare Mandarin and/or Cantonese [Chinese] the official language...All the little Moscow's.....will vote for Russian...all the little Saigon/Hanoi's will go with Vietnamese....all the Japan town's with Japanese....[see where this is going?...] It will be Polish...Italian...German....Gaelic....French..... ...Hebrew...Urdu...Hindi....Arabic...Farsi....Taga log....etc etc....and of course once the 'cat' is out of the bag....not one court will be able to stop it....Not one politician will have the strength to put an end to such silliness because they don't dare run the risk of being 'racist' or 'insensitive'.....and all the rest of the politically correct sewage that flows out of media organs....So what you'll end up with is a totally patch-work nation where communication amongst the citizenry has been for all intensive purposes eliminated...
Now how on Earth is that going to help mutual understanding? How will this end the confusion and tensions between people? How will this help all Americans...to realize that they ARE Americans...regardless of background?????
No...not one bit with this idiotic move of declaring Spanish an official language for any town...regardless of size....not one bit will this help...In reality this was the cheap easy cop-out "solution" when faced with the difficult road of staying in school and learning American Standard English.....
This towns leaders may 'think' that they've made life easier for themselves and their town-folk...but what they've really done is to tell them that it is perfectly O.K. to be left out of American society for all time.....

Last edited by Coffee Mate; 02-22-2008 at 02:15 PM.. Reason: ...the tower of babel will fall for sure.....
 
Old 02-22-2008, 02:08 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Determing speech by others' reactions and "how it sounds" may not necessarily be unintelligent, but it is certainly naive.

"But to myself..." Now that sounds unintelligent. "But to me..." is the correct usage. Should grammar be dictated by "what sounds good" as well? (I'm not trying to be the grammar police, but you are the one arguing terminology.)
''Determing speech by others' reactions and "how it sounds" may not necessarily be unintelligent, but it is certainly naive.''

True, but that's just the day we live in. We teach ourselves to always watch out for what others are thinking. In a way, it kind of makes us plastic - but that's just how people are. We don't want to offend anyone. There isn't as much free-speech as we think there is in this country. We're more concerned about political correctness than speaking our mind. This is especially through when discussing this kind of thing in a non-political atmosphere. It'd be like me having to go transfer over my Florida driver license to a New Jersey one soon. Sadly, sometimes they ask you what race you are. Similarly to how I've done on job applications, I just don't answer or leave it blank. That'd be out of the norm and arguably politically incorrect, but to myself the best thing to do.

And I'm not going to sit here arguing about grammar. Of course I'll screw up grammatically like anyone else. I'm not a Journalist. I'm better than a lot of other people when it comes to that though. It's not so much about what sounds good, but rather what seems to not draw that awkward silence I mentioned. People fear that in this society, as I'm sure everyone does in their own.
 
Old 02-22-2008, 02:11 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
"Are they talking bad about me behind my back?'' would indicate paranoia, not machismo. Your clarification makes as little sense as the original claim.
We could go on and on about this. What's your point though? What's your reasoning for why Americans get frustrated when they hear someone speaking Spanish in front of them on line in a store? Yes, paranoia is part of it. But it goes back to that point I made. To some, it belittles their intelligence because it shows their non-versatility. I know machismo wasn't the best indication, so I'm glad you corrected me.
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