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Old 02-19-2008, 01:49 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
By the time Hispanics are the majority I will be an old man. We're talking about Generations of Hispanics who have American beliefs and have been in America most of their lives. They were born here, they grew up here just like any other American. Sure some thing will change but I don't really expect it to be drastic.
Well stated....I know many MANY "hispanics" very well.....(very well indeed)..and most of the folks I know aren't "changing" America-they ARE America...their only distinguishing difference that comes to mind is a slightly higher rate of serving in the military than the "norm" for the American population. Most don't think of themselves as "hispanics" at all until they encounter a discussion such as this....most of the time, they're just 'people'.

 
Old 02-19-2008, 02:02 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Okay. In other words, stating that Hispanics will become the majority is meaningless? If that's the case, why do people make such statements?

I don't believe they intend on making meaningless statements. I believe there is a point, in their minds anyway, to what they are saying. If you don't know what this point is, that's fine.

As a sidenote, if the border stays open, what makes you think they will assimilate?
I understand your concerns, but I think it's important to remember that the people "saying" this stuff are getting increasingly strident and 'shrill'--and I think it's because that 'message' is probably just that..a "message". It's the dream of some misguided zealots, who are in no more position to speak on anything that you or I are. They fail to take into account that very few people, coming here, are REALLY going to want to "trash" the system, no matter WHAT the "activists" say.

I've known a NUMBER of illegals who SWORE they were going "home" one day..but once the kids get in school, once "Dad" gets his papers, once they get a few "goodies", most of them change their minds. The "old" culture doesn't look so good after all. I've known MANY people who INSIST their kids speak English...but we don't hear about that much.

Not a 'perfect answer", but there is much room for optimism...

PS I DO insist we control the border ASAP...there's just no excuse for an "open border", immigrants or not. Too much is going on today to let that continue...it's a disgrace.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,016,777 times
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A hispanic majority is not a foregone conclusion. It would require high levels of immigration for decades, while maintaining the high Latino birth rate at the same time. Unlikely, especially considering that most Americans want to put a stop to illegal immigration. That, and their birthrates will/are lowering as they have been here a while.

If it does occur, I would imagine America would be more balkanized than we have seen. I don't think America could be a stable country with 2 main cultures-Hispanic and White Euro descent. Notice I did say culture since hispanic is not a race.

I am not against Hispanic immigration at all, it just needs to be controlled. I really wouldnt care if they became the majority if it took a long time-that would assure assimilation. I want an America 100 years from now as strong as it is today. I could care less about the skin color of the Americans.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 02:51 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Okay. In other words, stating that Hispanics will become the majority is meaningless? If that's the case, why do people make such statements?

I don't believe they intend on making meaningless statements. I believe there is a point, in their minds anyway, to what they are saying. If you don't know what this point is, that's fine.

As a sidenote, if the border stays open, what makes you think they will assimilate?
''Okay. In other words, stating that Hispanics will become the majority is meaningless? If that's the case, why do people make such statements?''

The answer is simple. Political power. Politicians want votes. The government loves to groom new middle class citizens. Money needs to be flooded into these immigrant communities to make sure their kids live exactly like white American citizens. That's why immigrants get jobs easier, partly due to the fact that the government provides tax breaks to companies to provide more community jobs. The same thing goes to apartments. Even if immigrants don't always live in the best apartments, we all know that inner-city blacks are living much worse. That's why it appear in New York City that rent control buildings are almost entirely immigrated and/or elderly, as opposed to the projects which are nearly entirely African-American.

The government believes an increasing population is the answer to our problems, but the truth is that it's doing nothing more than bundling up our problems. The only thing positive it's doing is keeping the military as populated or more. There are too many of our own citizens (many of who's ancestors never voluntarily came ere) who live like crap. That's the responsibility of our government to assimilate them, rather than grooming new ones. Too much of our country is uneducated, poor and has no health insurance - so I really got no clue why Americans aren't against the idea of high numbers of legal immigrants.

The term Hispanic is a political device that quickens the assimilation of Latin American immigrants who come from countries with low currencies and little bank accounts. Their higher fertility rates help compensate for the lower percentage in the United States. Most come young, and because they often have 3 kids before they get out of their 20's - most female spouses don't work or develop careers which creates economic strain. The government feels that things like Financial AID and ''minority scholarship'' helps speed up this process. With the term ''Hispanic'' though, these organizations would probably not exist.

Many people would not have the sympathy for Latin American immigrants either. Even if their ancestors owned and raped slaves, people will always feel bad for the immigrant who's living under middle-class stature. That is why you see the media constantly tag-team the terms ''Black and Hispanic'' and ''minorities'' in major cities, because it's a political device that transforms into one thing. It's made to make Latin Americans be and/or live like white middle-class Americans, and to leave blacks in their hole. And often dig themselves deeper.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 02:55 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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Default re:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Agreed, but there are states and localities where Hispanics will become the majority.
Technichally, you're right. Sure, people in Texas won't look like Hank Hill as much - but will they be making any different money? Even if we were to believe in the term ''Hispanic'' or grouping all Latin Americans into one as isolated from the American social definition of whiteness, will Latin American descendants really be living all that different than white Americans - even if they are the majority of their respective cities or states? No. Look at Miami and southern Texas as example. They'll just mesh into the populace, which will likely be how ever the Euro-Americans are living.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 03:02 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
What's the big deal; being a minority in the USA isn't so bad ... right?
No, it's not. It definitely depends on what you consider to be a ''minority'' though. Personally, I'd much rather be the child of Mexican immigrants in Mississippi rather than being Jewish there. Just because almost all Jews and Muslims are not accounted for as minorities in this countries doesn't exactly mean people believe they're apart of the populace. The American media transformed the term ''minority'' to automatically equate to race and/or ethnicity. It could be culturally, linguistically, economically, religiously, ect.

Under what the United States government and media intend for the term ''minority'' to mean, it really should be obsolete. However, it's not. For Asian-American/immigrants, West Indian/African immigrants and Native Americans, it's neutrally obsolete. For Latin-Americans, it's great - because it's giving their kids a better life and preserving their future white American stature. For blacks, it's the worse thing possible.

For Latin-Americans though, they're economically benefiting from the social programs that are being created by that fake term. And for everyone one plus they receive, it's just like a math equation. Blacks receive equally as many minuses, which is why blacks in inner-cities will never get out of their hole. This is not always true at the local level (especially in the south or areas in the country that aren't effected - i.e. Alaska), but from a national point of view it will continue to be.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Agree, I was just pointing out that many Americans do not assimilate to Mexico per se, because they go to areas that speak English, have a Walmart, Costco and server hamburgers. Many just go there because it is cheap and has nice beaches. No problem with that, but they are not really assimilating either.
Apples and oranges there.

Most Gringos living in Mexico have their own money and are not competitors for low paying jobs in that country whereas Mexican nationals in El Norte are after jobs------------displacing Americans and oftentimes green holders due to employer greed (and a 'US' government that tends to look the other way )
 
Old 02-19-2008, 03:11 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
No, we're not talking about generations who have been here. The increase will come from immigration, not birthrate.
You're right. To add to your point, it really wouldn't make much sense why people of Latin American descent in this country (if they were born here) would have a higher fertility rate than the Euro-American population. This would be especially true for the second generation. Right now, the United States is in between 14 and 15 percent of Latin American descent. Hypothetically, if the U.S. were to lock their borders - that percentage would only rise by probably one insignificant percentage point - largely because the immigrants of this generation have higher fertility rates.

What also seems to amaze me is that people believe people of Latin American descent will magically continue to marry people of Latin American descent. For the immigrants and first-generation maybe, but why anyone beyond that? Espcially in states like New Jersey where more than half the Euro-American population is Catholic?

Why would they? They can't just know who's Latin American. They won't have accents. They probably will lose the ability to speak the Spanish language, as well as their culture. What would be any more special about being Mexican over being Irish? If all of you believe Euro-Americans have some kind of a phobia against marrying Latin Americans, maybe you should count how many Euro-American/Latin-American couples you already do know (especially if you live in a place that has large numbers of both). It will be more than any of you could count on your fingers. If none of you don't believe me, turn on a soap opera and count how many couples you may believe seem to intend that point (even if they don't say).

Imagine that in the future? Would the government try to track who's 25% ''Hispanic?'' No. It's be completely obsolete. That's another big reason why the term Hispanic will absolve itself before 2050. They'll eventually developed a more intelligent version of tracking Latin American demography (like Canada). One thing I could tell you about any group who is mixing with Euro-Americans is that regardless of whether you are white within Latin America, a non-white Latin American, black, Asian or anything else - you're going to live economically and socially exactly like a white person. That's just the way how it is.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 03:28 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
Lets cut this up into little pieces. A while back Americans of Mexican parents were considered as White according to Census. Now, they are regarded under Hispanic or Latino. My belief is that these "Half breeds", Latino/White under a few generations (40 years is a long time) they will regard themselves as White. Most of the Mexican/White people I know look more White than anything, the White phenotype is dominant in this case. These people will most likely have blue eyes, dirty blonde hair with European features. I believe it all boils down to the very definition of "White".
That is true, but now they're technically consider both white (or something else) and Hispanic/Latino. They're doing these things separately. Technically, of the 14% (1/7) of America that is of Latin American descent, approximately half of that claimed to be white alone. That means 7% of the United States is white/Euro-American that isn't be demographically counted for. The Census states that our country is 69% white. In reality, we're 76% white.

When the need arises for the government to plug in that gap to protect the identity of whiteness as a majority of this nation, don't be surprised that half of the project 24% will be counted as white. So instead of the United States being 50% (1/2) white as I described in one of my previous messages, the country will be 62% (5/8). The United States is socially understood by most Americans to be that 69% number, so 62% wouldn't be that ''drastic'' of an identity change. Through the mixing out and assimilation too, their identity would inevitably evaporate anyway.

Basically, whether they lineally are or socially considered themselves to be white just won't matter. The truth is, they'll economically live exactly like non-Spaniard Euro-Americans, therefore their status of whiteness really won't matter. It's all about money. Likewise to Asians and West Indians. Technically, Asians are consider ''minorities'' in this country. However, how often when the media gives images of this do they actually tag an Asian person to it. Definitely not as commonly as an African-American or a Mexican immigrant.

If there was anything such as being Latino in this day, it obviously will not be there a few decades from now. I really doubt a guy making 80 grand a year is in California who's second-generation American will be interested in marrying the daughter of a construction worker in a working-class part of a major city. And even if he were to, she and their children would live exactly like the guy.

Although some non-whites marry poorer whites, that usually isn't the case. The only circumstance you could see in this could be black men with white women. It's not to say that middle-class black men don't find middle class white women from time to time, but black women would have a much bigger pool to work with than white women would when it comes to economic aspirations. Usually the environments in which stereotype is depleted and where people can co-mingle are places where middle-class and/or educated people meet.

For example, that is why black women who marry white men seem to be a lot attractive and better off economically than black men who marry white women. The women got a larger pool to pick from, and most middle-class white or black men wouldn't want to marry a poor women. Basically, regardless of rich or poor - you're likely to enter the situation of the male spouse and the trend of the American, rather than live like the person behind.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 03:45 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,697 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
A hispanic majority is not a foregone conclusion. It would require high levels of immigration for decades, while maintaining the high Latino birth rate at the same time. Unlikely, especially considering that most Americans want to put a stop to illegal immigration. That, and their birthrates will/are lowering as they have been here a while.

If it does occur, I would imagine America would be more balkanized than we have seen. I don't think America could be a stable country with 2 main cultures-Hispanic and White Euro descent. Notice I did say culture since hispanic is not a race.

I am not against Hispanic immigration at all, it just needs to be controlled. I really wouldnt care if they became the majority if it took a long time-that would assure assimilation. I want an America 100 years from now as strong as it is today. I could care less about the skin color of the Americans.
Well, you're being rather generous. For one, knowing that we're both in agreement that it isn't a race, obviously has to take into account that some are white and of Euro descent. Why wouldn't they just become culturally camouflage to white America? For the immigrants that might not be true, but do you really believe American citizens are so culturally intellectual or demanding? No. All of us really don't like much different than one another.

Even if a close percentage was to be drawn between Euro and Latin Americans, more mixing would occur between the two - making it rather useless to be one or the other. However, because non-Spaniard Euro-Americans created the culture of this country - the Latin American descendants will be living under their cultural law. This happens to Italians and a lot of other groups too. No one wants to be an ''outcast.'' People have no problem assimilating, as it's the healthiest thing for people to acquire educated middle-class stature.

There won't be segmentations of different cultures in this country. For people who actually do understand culture well, you could argue that there could be subculture - kind of like Jewish people for example. But this won't mean they live different lives than the Euro-American population. They don't seem themselves as a group. As we learned with all European immigrants, all come to live the same as one another at the end. Are there really any segments of whites who are known for living like crap nowadays?

The same can be said to non-white Americans like Asians and West Indians. Often times, they live like white Americans (if not better) upon arrival. Their kids will be Americans and won't live differently than most whites. Poor Inner-city blacks who finally understand their parents are pieces of crap and get an education come to live exactly like whites and the descendants of immigrants of all economic situations. Basically, when we all economically live the same - all power will be divided more equivalently and hostile tensions will naturally delete themselves.

I completely agree that immigration should be more controlled. I'm not against Latin American immigration either. However, I think we should demand a higher education and economic situation from our immigrants. That might mean to take more Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants over Latin Americans. They just don't want to come as much though because they choose better places like Europe, Canada and South Africa and have a lot more respect United Nations migration quotas - which the U.S. and Mexico largely ignore.

It's not that these immigrants won't have children and grandchildren that will live like middle-class Americans, but rather our economy sucks and we don't necessarily have the money to flood into loads of programs for poor immigrants. We have too many problems. Especially with wasting all this money on the War in Iraq. We got health care concerns too. And more than anything else, we haven't attended to the problem of focusing on creating better programs to get inner-city African-Americans out of their impoverished boxes. Latin American immigrants stand in the way of all that.

To myself personally, I see the United States government to working-class Latin American immigrants (and Mexicans especially) as Rudy Giuliani tried to use Florida in his campaigning style. Putting all your fruit in one basket just isn't the way to go. It's necessary to contain a controlled population, so we maintain our currency, jobs and allocation of resources like social security (which will probably dissolve) and universal health care (which may come about - or at least for children under 12 as Clinton proposed). If we contain our immigration and raise the standards of our immigrants, less money will have to be flooded into them - as they'd already have it on their own. Than we'd have the money and time to focus on the problems this country already has.
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