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Old 02-19-2008, 08:40 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
You should probably do a little research, Pro.

Here, let me help you.

California (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:6e77-AuWFnwJ:www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0056/tab19.xls+California+population+1850&hl=en&ct=clnk &cd=3&gl=us - broken link)
True. THe early-day Spanish development of California (which the Mexicans inherited) took place almost exclusively along the coast and the Coast Range. That's where the missions were, and that's where the big Ranchos were, too. Very little went on in the Central Valley (the southern part of which was a desert) The Sacramento Valley and the Delta area finally really got 'developed' around the time of the Gold Rush---and the San Joaquin Valley even later. It was really mostly an "American" thing, and really took off when gold was found in the western foothills of the Sierra Nevada. THAT event brought an explosion of immigrants from all over the world.

The Mexicans "knew" about the Valley, of course..and a very few passed that way (along with an occasional American trapper or explorer). But the VAST majority of the huge present-day Mexican population in the Valley are descended from those who came in the early decades of the 20th century in response to the jobs in agriculture. These Mexicans actually worked along side, and in some cases 'replaced", early-day white "Okies", Japanese, Filipinos, Hindus, Armenians, Chinese, and many other labor groups. Most of the other groups "moved on" to other work, but the Mexicans just "kept on coming" in a steady immigration, which continues to this day..

Last edited by macmeal; 02-19-2008 at 08:50 PM..

 
Old 02-19-2008, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc0127 View Post
Don't use the term ''minorities.'' It makes you sounds like you're a product of the corrupted media. In that term, none of us are stupid. We know that doesn't mean Asians. We know that means poor blacks and poor Latin American immigrants. Maybe because there are different Latin American immigrated groups in California you may see it a little differently, but I refuse to include a descendant of an oppressive Spaniard slave owner and/or rapist to be a ''minority'' or ''non-white'', simply because their economic situation sucks in this country because they immigrated from a country with no money.

Euro-Americans could be proud of their roots, but they don't know them. And even if they did know them, they wouldn't take themselves seriously. Same thing with blacks. Most whites live good and love America, so the way they see it - they don't really need anything else. If they want to feel different they'll go ahead and be a rocker for a year or something.

America's isolated segregated racist views promote the isolation of blacks too. As I said to plenty of people, they should believe black is beautiful physically but ugly socially. It's what keeps them poor and behind the rest of our country. Things like ''rap'' are the perfect example. No one should band together because of how they look in this modern world. Whites don't do that on purpose. They're the populace. It's much more common to see a middle-class suburban white be accepting to blacks, rather than an inner-city black being accepting to middle-class whites.
Piece of trivia: less that 100 years ago; some 'Whites' were less equal than others--------read that Americans of Irish, Italian, Eastern Europe, etc. heritage were held in lower esteem that so-called northwestern Euro sourced Americans.

Let me put it this way: I consider myself to be a 'WASP'------despite my being of 1/2 Hungarian heritage (father was an immigrant).
 
Old 02-19-2008, 08:57 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,581 times
Reputation: 37
''All I was trying to say by my post is my concern of this scenario based on what I see everyday in the area that I live. The majority is Mexican, most of whom don't speak English, they have their own grocery stores, convenience stores, restuarants, and they tend to stay within their own micro commuity if you will.''

You're right. All immigrants do that though. It might seem like they got a little more though because there are more Mexican immigrants than any other. Italian immigrants had that back 70-80 years ago too, right? Now look at things. It's all minimal. Now if there is anything left it's usually considered to be of a historical element, and not something that lives today. Those Mexican immigrants will have their isolated worlds today, but when they're kids are in USF and become accountants - lets see how interested they are in going into living anywhere near that grocery shop in an immigrated enclave.

The one thing that Mexican immigrants uniquely have that others don't is that there is a continuous trend. In New York City for example, Irish, Italian and Puerto Rican ended all after about one full generation. Dominicans are doing it right now. Mexico has a lot of people and are geographically connected to much of the United States - so it doesn't shock me that they'll continue. It's kind of like pass the flag though. Those who come will take the title of what those who did before them. And those who decide to go to college and keep up on the expensive lifestyle of California will pretty much become white Americans.

The assimilated Mexicans you mention are the American born ones. More will become assimilated, but more will continue to immigrate. When immigration stops as a whole, that's when all Mexicans will be assimilated. However, because the percentage of those of Mexican descent will rise in percentage to both California and the United States - a higher percentage will live in middle-class stature, rather than in isolated enclaves.

The unhealthy nature you observe will go away on it's own. This is something some shouldn't do, but not all Mexican immigrants are like this. Whether they like it or not, those ''outsiders'' are exactly who their children are to become - so they're screwed. To claim that Mexican immigrants have a form of unity within those respective enclaves is believable, but to believe all of Latin American are is refutable. I know that wasn't what you meant, but some will interpret to be that when they hear the term ''Hispanic'' (especially if they aren't of Latin American descent).

Most ties will dissolve with Mexico. The best that will remain is having a grandparent who they plan on visiting. No one cares for the ''reconquista.'' That'd be like saying Cuban-Americans would participate in a second Bay of Pigs. With Fidel Castro resigning today, do you really believe anyone actually was energized? Maybe a couple basements of people who smoke to many doobies, but I really doubt a white-collared resident of expensive south Florida would throw that unnecessary kind of burden on themselves. Most Mexican immigrants are more than well are that Mexico is gone and that's just how it is. If any person really wanted to participate in such an unrealistic laughable group, they'd be better off staying in Mexico anyway.

What is say is who cares for their desires. If you don't got the money or political power to back it up in 2008, it's useless. The best question is what will be their children's desires. I really doubt they'd want to live inside a lower-middle class box. They're intelligent enough to realize that their ancestors would have been better off in Mexico if that had been their intention. Plus, if they wanted to live as Mexicans and remain such a good connection - why leave Mexico in the first place? It really isn't that bad of a place and you can climb the ladder within Mexico City.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:09 PM
 
418 posts, read 264,581 times
Reputation: 37
Default re:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Piece of trivia: less that 100 years ago; some 'Whites' were less equal than others--------read that Americans of Irish, Italian, Eastern Europe, etc. heritage were held in lower esteem that so-called northwestern Euro sourced Americans.

Let me put it this way: I consider myself to be a 'WASP'------despite my being of 1/2 Hungarian heritage (father was an immigrant).
You're right. It depends on what city and what region of the country though. Different places had different demographics and immigration trends. The world was a lot smaller back than. That was especially true for Italians. It took them about 2 generations to knock themselves out of that working class mode.

However, for people of Irish descent - their ethnic title was gone by the first generation of the twentieth century. Irish Catholics median year was in the 1850's. By 50 or 60 years later, they had more money and political power and couldn't be stepped on anymore. They were no longer Irish. Italians busted out of this too. Puerto Ricans did it at even a quicker rate because of the assimilative measures of post-WWII America, and Dominicans did it even quicker. Mexicans are similar to Dominicans in that regard. They both live heavily in very educated and expensive areas that demand assimilation. That's why it seems sometimes that it's actually like you'd have to work harder to not assimilate rather than assimilate.

I don't feel a whole lot different than you. Although I'm technically Catholic, I'd have a hard-time believing I'm not apart of what seems to be the white populace. As you noted, your father was a Hungarian immigrant - so it probably wouldn't be any different for a Mexican immigrant's child. Both receive the same education. Both half of your ancestors and their's are not traditional to what you'd normally see in California. Yet, both of you probably don't feel differently neither socially or economically to that ''WASP'' imagery.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:17 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,157,153 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
You should probably do a little research, Pro.

Here, let me help you.

California (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:6e77-AuWFnwJ:www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0056/tab19.xls+California+population+1850&hl=en&ct=clnk &cd=3&gl=us - broken link)

Breaking News:
Welcome to 2008.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyc0127 View Post
''All I was trying to say by my post is\.

The one thing that Mexican immigrants uniquely have that others don't is that there is a continuous trend. In New York City for example, Irish, Italian and Puerto Rican ended all after about one full generation. Dominicans are doing it right now. Mexico has a lot of people and are geographically connected to much of the United States - so it doesn't shock me that they'll continue. It's kind of like pass the flag though. Those who come will take the title of what those who did before them. And those who decide to go to college and keep up on the expensive lifestyle of California will pretty much become white Americans.
.
I have to hand it to you for your "optimism". I've worked in the Water Industry here in California for years, and while we do have some EXTREMELY valuable properties, I've spent a lot of time in the "not-so-expensive" areas too, and I can ASSURE you there are places in California that rival El Salvador in poverty--many of them in SIGHT of the gated communities. There are rural 'slums' in the San Joaquin Valley that would SHOCK the folks passing by on the nearby freeway, who have no IDEA of their existence.

I've known people living in ship-containers, in tents under the trees, and in discarded camper shells...and paying RENT for the privilege. I've seen whole groups of guys who don't speak Spanish (they're Nahuatls) who are REALLY at the mercy of the ranchers and growers...and even get ripped off by their labor brokers. And I've known many families sub-letting garages and backyard playhouses. It's NOT a good situation, and it's going to take some real 'effort' to get these folks into the 'expensive California lifestyle' you talk about.

Not trying to discount your great posts...but realize that not ALL of California is 'upscale'...and parts of it aren't even 'first world'. Agriculture and nursery labor is a 'hard row to hoe', and I don't know if you'll EVER straighten the situation out...I sure don't have any answers.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:20 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,157,153 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Apology accepted and appreciated.

All I was trying to say by my post is my concern of this scenario based on what I see everyday in the area that I live. The majority is Mexican, most of whom don't speak English, they have their own grocery stores, convenience stores, restuarants, and they tend to stay within their own micro commuity if you will. As for the rest of the people in my town, whites, blacks, asians, east indians, and assimilated Mexicans, all live together in harmony for the most part, living as one people, Americans. The Mexicans in my area have a very distinct line drawn between them and the rest of the community, and I think this is very unhealthy. To me, while there are many Latinos who will assimilate and become Amercians, there are many who will hold very strongly onto their allegiance to Mexico and believe in the whole "reconquista" movement, and that is my concern of a majority "hispanic" America. I don't care about color or country of origin, as long as you want to be an American, and my worry comes from the many Latinos I've personally witnessed who appear to me to have no desire to become Americans.
Are you saying that the majority of Americans of Hispanic decent believe in this reconquista? Factually, it is the Aztlanistas, Mexica-Movement, MeCHA and other Brown supremacist organizations who believe in this bogus dream.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:25 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
Are you saying that the majority of Americans of Hispanic decent believe in this reconquista? Factually, it is the Aztlanistas, Mexica-Movement, MeCHA and other Brown supremacist organizations who believe in this bogus dream.
Most of these guys don't 'work', they're college students or similar 'groupies'...many of them US-born.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:29 PM
 
25,084 posts, read 13,912,186 times
Reputation: 41737
I have read some really funny posts in this thread, but I don't know what 2050 will look like and what ethnicity will be the majority in America. I don't think it will be Hispanics though. Hopefully America will rise above the issues of color and be a just society committed to equality for all of Her citizens no matter their heritage. I think it is important to keep in mind that being the majority does not mean having the most power or ruling over the minority. Look at Mexico and other Latino Countries/Islands like Cuba for example. Also, look at the minority rule of South Africa or any African country for that matter. And take a look at the Middle East too. In many of these nations the majority of the people suffer at the hands of the minority in power. Do u think America is any different today or will be any different in 2050? I think we have enough to focus our attention on presently without adding the fear of Hispanic population growth. Americans need to resolve illegal immigration and the the financial and social burdens that have come along with it. If we can accomplish this any time soon the possibilities of 2050 are looking somewhat better.
 
Old 02-19-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,157,153 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Piece of trivia: less that 100 years ago; some 'Whites' were less equal than others--------read that Americans of Irish, Italian, Eastern Europe, etc. heritage were held in lower esteem that so-called northwestern Euro sourced Americans.

Let me put it this way: I consider myself to be a 'WASP'------despite my being of 1/2 Hungarian heritage (father was an immigrant).
According to Arizona Bound's logic, you too would be an anchor baby. LOL!
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