My Take on Immigration (medical, visas, illegally, unemployment)
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Please take pardon that I may be throwing a wrench into this whole "illegal alien" rhetoric that is bandied about and has been for some years.
Here are some points you might want to ponder before speaking on the subject.
1) not all illegal aliens are from "south of the border"....i.e. there are plenty of illegal Canadians and Europeans here. (yep, they go undetected because they "look like" Americans and have no "accent" when they speak.
2) No US customs agent can stop someone with a valid passport from another country (who's country does not require a visa to enter the US) to enter the US as a tourist.
MILLIONS of europeans and Canadians enter the US, every day, with simply their government issued passport and are allowed, legally, to be here for up to 3 months. (they come as tourists. DUH!!!)
3) I, as a US citizen, have done the above mentioned.......... I flew to Germany...(no visa needed)...... nor do Germans (or the French or the Dutch or the Brits, etc.) need a visa to come here......... no questions asked. just show your passport.
So, on we go. When the three months were up(as a tourist in Germany) I simply applied for another 3 months extension and .........wow, hey........ I ended up living and working there for 10 years........ sometimes under the table and sometimes with a work permit.......Oh and by the way...... I did a lot of office jobs....... I don't see many Latin Americans running around taking over managerial jobs or admin jobs here in the US.
It's seriously not that different if you go the other way around. e.g. coming from europe...... or not even being a European but having a European passport(its' all about the paperwork) and coming on over to the US of A for a "vacation". Who's checking that any one of those "tourists" are going back home??.... the answer...... no one!
My point: stop focusing on Mexicans and Latin Americans. Even Mexicans can come to the US for a "vacation" just as any US citizen can go to Canada or Mexico for a "vacation".......... but again.......... there's no one watching and saying...."oh you have to go back after a certain time frame"........
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
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Your just trying to skirt around the main issue. And FYI, if you'd have read all of the comments you would see that Latino's, Mexicans and Hispanics are not the only ones being mentioned.
Illegal Immigrant means any and all Illegals, no matter where they came from.
Well, I have to admit that my experiences have been mostly centralized to the orchards in Oregon.
And I also fully agree I'm looking at it from a humanitarian point of view.
But from what I see, while we may not get this generation of immigrants to weave into our culture, the next one certainly would.
I know where you are coming from because I lived all of my life in Oregon except for the last four. The migrants worked the crops and the orchards day in and day out. I never did see an American citizen doing the work in those fields, did you? I see it from a humanitarian view also, but that is one part of my personality I hope I never lose and that is to view all humans as worthwhile.
Sassy
OK, after reading some of the responses I will admit my thoughts are niave to a certain extent. Very good posts indeed. However, some of the other ones about how rich Mexico is... seem very far fetched and a few others are out & out racist for the purpose of being racist.
But I believe the facts still remain that for many, the majority, of those trying to come here are just trying to make a better living (I forgot who made that point, but it was well taken and made a big impression on me). I, for one, can't begrudge anyone for that.
It also seems to me that if we were a little more accepting we could pretty much control the immigrants as they come in- and thereby controling who we want and don't want.
If life here isn't any bettter for them, they will return home. All we're doing is making life hostile against them.
that last line says it all blazer. eliminate the government handouts and take away their employment [i.e. prosecute their employers] and they WILL go home. it's a very cost effective solution
Please take pardon that I may be throwing a wrench into this whole "illegal alien" rhetoric that is bandied about and has been for some years.
Here are some points you might want to ponder before speaking on the subject.
1) not all illegal aliens are from "south of the border"....i.e. there are plenty of illegal Canadians and Europeans here. (yep, they go undetected because they "look like" Americans and have no "accent" when they speak.
2) No US customs agent can stop someone with a valid passport from another country (who's country does not require a visa to enter the US) to enter the US as a tourist.
MILLIONS of europeans and Canadians enter the US, every day, with simply their government issued passport and are allowed, legally, to be here for up to 3 months. (they come as tourists. DUH!!!)
3) I, as a US citizen, have done the above mentioned.......... I flew to Germany...(no visa needed)...... nor do Germans (or the French or the Dutch or the Brits, etc.) need a visa to come here......... no questions asked. just show your passport.
So, on we go. When the three months were up(as a tourist in Germany) I simply applied for another 3 months extension and .........wow, hey........ I ended up living and working there for 10 years........ sometimes under the table and sometimes with a work permit.......Oh and by the way...... I did a lot of office jobs....... I don't see many Latin Americans running around taking over managerial jobs or admin jobs here in the US.
It's seriously not that different if you go the other way around. e.g. coming from europe...... or not even being a European but having a European passport(its' all about the paperwork) and coming on over to the US of A for a "vacation". Who's checking that any one of those "tourists" are going back home??.... the answer...... no one!
My point: stop focusing on Mexicans and Latin Americans. Even Mexicans can come to the US for a "vacation" just as any US citizen can go to Canada or Mexico for a "vacation".......... but again.......... there's no one watching and saying...."oh you have to go back after a certain time frame"........
If most Europeans "don't have an accent", that's news to me...even many Canadians have one, IMHO. However, that's neither here nor there. I've known illegals for decades, and it was generally tolerated as a 'victimless crime' up until the past decade or so....at THAT point, it was a combination of a LOT of things...the sheer overwhelming RATE of illegal immigration...the fact that they're 'moving out' into more and more desirable jobs...And, in the case of Mexican activists, the outrageous, "in-your-face" flag-desecrating street demonstrations which practically GUARANTEED that these folks would get HUGE attention....almost all of it NEGATIVE attention...that more-or-less brought on the current 'rancor'. There's no doubt in my mind that this is the case. The behavior of these activists ended any hope that the public wouldn't 'notice' them....and believe me, they got 'noticed'.
I ALSO have a personal theory, which I posted recently, and that is this..although most of the Southwest has had LONG familiarity with Mexico, and with Mexicans..(who, after all, were here "first"), MUCH of the US.. outside the big cities, does NOT. In some places, particularly in the south, NO IMMIGRANTS have arrived in any number, for generations...no Catholics, no Jews, no Mexicans, NOBODY. Many such areas, until recent times, were 95% PLUS, "American born"....black or white.
NOW, in recent years, these areas, which aren't prosperous (nor really al that 'sophisticated') to BEGIN with, are having their first "experience" in generations, with immigration...and a good percentage of it is illegal. Not too surprising that the welcome mat isn't ALWAYS out....THis is only my personal 'guess', of course.
I know where you are coming from because I lived all of my life in Oregon except for the last four. The migrants worked the crops and the orchards day in and day out. I never did see an American citizen doing the work in those fields, did you? I see it from a humanitarian view also, but that is one part of my personality I hope I never lose and that is to view all humans as worthwhile.
Sassy
Unless you personally interviewed ALL of them, you might have been surprised at just who was, and was not, an American citizen, among the pickers you observed.
Unless you personally interviewed ALL of them, you might have been surprised at just who was, and was not, an American citizen, among the pickers you observed.
you're right, but it was on the news and in the paper that they needed help for their crops.
It will be crop season soon there again and it will be the same story.
Your argument fails right here. Paco is not without a job. His family isn't starving. He comes here because he can make several times what he makes in Mexico, at the job he leaves.
So Paco adds to the US labor force size, increasing the US supply of labor, which decreases American wages. We Americans certainly appreciate Paco's "help" in driving down our wages and taking another one of the limited jobs in this country.
There are 232 million working age Americans (http://www.bls.gov/web/cpseea1.pdf - broken link), but only 146 million of them are employed. That's a surplus of 86 million not employed Americans. We don't need any more workers.
And we don't need any more Pacos, or anyone else, to take jobs away from Americans, and drive wages down in the process.
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Last edited by madicarus2000; 03-31-2008 at 04:33 PM..
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So Paco adds to the US labor force size, increasing the US supply of labor, which decreases American wages. We Americans certainly appreciate Paco's "help" in driving down our wages and taking another one of the limited jobs in this country.
There are 232 million working age Americans (http://www.bls.gov/web/cpseea1.pdf - broken link), but only 146 million of them are employed. That's a surplus of 86 million not employed Americans. We don't need any more workers.
And we don't need any more Pacos, or anyone else, to take jobs away from Americans, and drive wages down in the process.
So do you think that any of those 86 million "Americans" applied for one of those jobs? And if so, then it follows that the Employer chose to hire an illegal instead of a legal person? Why would he do that? Maybe to violate the law?
There ARE thoussands of Mexicans who come to the US to work legally everyday. In the southern California and Arizona areas they are bussed over everyday to work the fields and packing plants, and go home each day. I would think if there were Americans wanting the jobs, then they would be hired (and there are,of course, just not enough).
In Tijuana thousands drive over the border every day to go to their jobs in the US (and back home at night). The same all along the border.
So do you think that any of those 86 million "Americans" applied for one of those jobs? And if so, then it follows that the Employer chose to hire an illegal instead of a legal person? Why would he do that? Maybe to violate the law?
There ARE thoussands of Mexicans who come to the US to work legally everyday. In the southern California and Arizona areas they are bussed over everyday to work the fields and packing plants, and go home each day. I would think if there were Americans wanting the jobs, then they would be hired (and there are,of course, just not enough).
In Tijuana thousands drive over the border every day to go to their jobs in the US (and back home at night). The same all along the border.
Simple answer: Greed. If an employer can hire someone for $5/hr and pay no benefits, they will make a greater profit than if they hired someone for $8/hr with benefits.
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Lovely
