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Major principal of the US Justice system. "You are presumed innocent until convicted". Also included in the UN Charter on basic human rights.
So you don't believe in the US Justice system? String them up and then try them?
You realize of course that is banana republic justice. That what you want?
Amazing how the right wing wants to abandon the US justice system.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty too, but that is for court. If a person commits a crime, they are a criminal regardless of what the court determines. (see OJ) Of course, they deserve due process, but that is not the point.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty too, but that is for court. If a person commits a crime, they are a criminal regardless of what the court determines. (see OJ) Of course, they deserve due process, but that is not the point.
So in your view "innocent" does not mean "innocent" and the person is a "criminal" because you know they are?
We have solved the problem. We just get you a little dais and you can sit there and take all the cost and work out of our justice system.
No, the OP made a ridiculous premise that illegal aliens do not raise crime rates. Obviously that is not true (see Kate Steinle or numerous other examples). The OP saying that citizens cause crime too does not excuse the willful ignorance of illegals committing crimes.
That they are deport-able is true though not nearly 99.9%. There can be many reasons why they are not deport-able particularly if they have been here a long time. And they have a right to a hearing and to argue those issues. It is for instance reasonably common for DREAMERS to achieve legal status.
And again in the American justice system you are innocent until proven guilty. And you are not guilty because the right wing says you are.
If I reach in your pocket and take your wallet without your permission, that means I stole it. I know it isn't mine. Waiting on a trial does not alter the fact that I stole it.
99.9% of illegals do know they are here illegally. I never said deportable. I said know they are here illegally. Just as I know reaching into someone elses pocket and stealing their wallet is theft and illegal. If the illegals didn't know or at least assume they are here illegally then why fear the police or ICE?
Now you have no issue with illegals. I get that, you plead and argue for them at every turn. You always seek to minimize their illegality.
When you enter without permission, when you know it is required you knowingly and wantonly violate the law. Same as 99% of all other criminals.
When you purposely over stay your VISA. When you knowingly decide to work when you know you aren't permitted. You are a criminal.
Tell me would you be so charitable if someone broke into your house and stole from you? Would you, even if you witnessed the act, say the thief is innocent until they have a trial? I some how doubt that you would and I wouldn't blame you a bit.
As I said there are criminals and there are convicted criminals.
The OP simply points out that removing illegal aliens may in fact make crime worse in a given area.
Just catching up here, so my apologies if this has already been posted-
In May 2008, Phoenix reversed itself, becoming a non-sanctuary state. Under the policy, police had full discretion to ask suspects about their immigration status and had the freedom to call ICE. "We saw a decrease in crime," said Bolton. "It had a deterrent effect on folks because the risk of discovery went up exponentially when we actually enforced the law." Bolton served with Mark Spencer, who spent 25 years patrolling in Phoenix. "When we eliminated our sanctuary policy back in 2008, we saw crime, violent and stolen vehicles fall by 25 percent," he recalled. "We saw a 20-year low crime rate. When we were allowed and had the discretion to contact our federal immigration partners, crime fell drastically." According to City-Data.com, which collects data from various government agencies, from 2008 to 2009 Phoenix's murder rate fell 27 percent, robberies by 23 percent, assault by 13 percent, burglaries by 14 percent and theft by 19 percent. The numbers for each category fell the following year as well – albeit by smaller margins.
If I reach in your pocket and take your wallet without your permission, that means I stole it. I know it isn't mine. Waiting on a trial does not alter the fact that I stole it.
99.9% of illegals do know they are here illegally. I never said deportable. I said know they are here illegally. Just as I know reaching into someone elses pocket and stealing their wallet is theft and illegal. If the illegals didn't know or at least assume they are here illegally then why fear the police or ICE?
Now you have no issue with illegals. I get that, you plead and argue for them at every turn. You always seek to minimize their illegality.
When you enter without permission, when you know it is required you knowingly and wantonly violate the law. Same as 99% of all other criminals.
When you purposely over stay your VISA. When you knowingly decide to work when you know you aren't permitted. You are a criminal.
Tell me would you be so charitable if someone broke into your house and stole from you? Would you, even if you witnessed the act, say the thief is innocent until they have a trial? I some how doubt that you would and I wouldn't blame you a bit.
As I said there are criminals and there are convicted criminals.
And you do not understand my position at all. Not rare here. Nuanced positions are often past the capability of some posters.
I absolutely oppose the presence of illegal aliens. Should never have been allowed to happen. An outrageous thing allowed to occur for the benefit of certain US special interest and then not properly controlled when it begin to expand widely. Reagen and the following Adminsitration screwed up terrribly and made this awful mess.
And I have no objections to the present administration cutting down hard on any entering illegals and sending them back home or to jail if they have done it before. We should tightly control our borders. I also think we should take steps to better control visa overstays. That is a little tougher to do though as I also don't want to screw up the tourist and commercial travelers. So tighter but simple and easy.
What I disagree with is that there is any workable way to deport the 11 million or so well established illegal aliens who have become embedded in our society. Cost way too much, take way too long and would lead to big social unrest. Simply not rationally doable.
And I dispute these craven attacks on those people over idiot things like crime. It is simply not a factor.
And the illegal alien violates no law by being employed.
In fact this whole attack on them as law breakers is absurd. Maybe in the year after they arrive that might make some sense. But 20 year later? The connection to the offense is simply too weak to have any meaning. No I don't believe you should be locked up if you stole tomatoes from the garden next door in 1950. I did as did every kid in the neighborhood. But no I do not even feel guilty about it anymore criminal.
And no the one who breaks into my house is not a criminal until convicted. He is still a house breaker and I may well know that. But criminal requires a conviction. Remember "Innocent until proven guilty". It is how we choose to run our justice system.
Illegal aliens have broken the laws of our country. That is all that matters.
Trump is working on fixing it now supported by the majority of Americans. We will overcome this problem with diligence. The noose will continue to tighten.
Liberals don't care about breaking a few laws and they pretend don't exist and don't coincide with their political fascist agenda.
Immigration enforcement is not significantly changed since the last administration. Mostly show. The problem is that the resource has not changed and is unlikely too. So they arrest more people which increases the delays and in the end they will not make any large improvement in the actual deported.
Again what you are attempting to increase is the probability that your mother gets murdered. Why would you do that? You don't like your mother? If you remove the illegal aliens from say southern California there is virtually no date the risk to the remaining people goes up. In that case it may well be substantially.
Wow, just wow. I can't believe the how absurd this is. This has to be trolling.
What I disagree with is that there is any workable way to deport the 11 million or so well established illegal aliens who have become embedded in our society. Cost way too much, take way too long and would lead to big social unrest. Simply not rationally doable.
And I dispute these craven attacks on those people over idiot things like crime. It is simply not a factor.
And the illegal alien violates no law by being employed.
In fact this whole attack on them as law breakers is absurd. Maybe in the year after they arrive that might make some sense. But 20 year later? The connection to the offense is simply too weak to have any meaning. No I don't believe you should be locked up if you stole tomatoes from the garden next door in 1950. I did as did every kid in the neighborhood. But no I do not even feel guilty about it anymore criminal.
And no the one who breaks into my house is not a criminal until convicted. He is still a house breaker and I may well know that. But criminal requires a conviction. Remember "Innocent until proven guilty". It is how we choose to run our justice system.
what is so hard for you to understand that we ALREADY have LAWS to deal with illegal aliens, you deport them to their native country. Every country on earth does this including Mexico who have way tougher immigration laws on aliens who enter their country illegally.
Any illegal here who commits any crime or violation of any law is increasing the crime rate here that is costing the taxpayers billions of dollars. That's just basic math.
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