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Old 03-09-2018, 02:35 PM
 
31,722 posts, read 14,631,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
What I mean is that they want to have a bunch of agents who have the powers of criminal law enforcement, but only need to meet administrative burdens to exercise their power, and they actually want States and localities to fund the real enforcement work by bringing in the people ICE wants to target.

This is an important point: unlawful presence in the United States is not a crime. It is a civil offense. That means the burden of proof is lower and the Due Process needs are less rigorous. So why do we have some 7,500 enforcement officials at ICE operating in a quasi-law enforcement role? Make unlawful presence a crime and hire law enforcement officers to engage in real investigation and prosecution. Or retain a civil designation and use ordinary administrative process. There is no justification for LEO raids for an administrative violation. Nor is there justification for prolonged custodial detention for an administrative violation.



The difference between the Oakland laws & the Arizona law is that Oakland is not trying to enforce immigration law. Arizona was trying to do just that. You are over-reading the language in AZ v. US.

US immigration law does not make any attempt to occupy the field of regulating commercial trespass or customer/employee privacy. Federal administrative agents do not have an inherent right to conduct operations on the premises of private employers. They need a warrant to activate such a right.

There is not a good argument for preemption of the laws described here. The argument is even weaker for coerced police cooperation. Local police forces are under local authority. Absent obligatory legal process, local police forces are under no obligation to cooperate with federal administrative agencies.

Illegal immigration is a deportable offense no matter what kind of law applies to it. The Feds aka ICE have every right to detain illegal aliens and ultimately deport them. It is aiding and abetting for state or city officials to harbor them and to protect them from ICE.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, not Paris. #MAGA.
9,693 posts, read 5,296,984 times
Reputation: 9671
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
What I mean is that they want to have a bunch of agents who have the powers of criminal law enforcement, but only need to meet administrative burdens to exercise their power, and they actually want States and localities to fund the real enforcement work by bringing in the people ICE wants to target.

This is an important point: unlawful presence in the United States is not a crime. It is a civil offense. That means the burden of proof is lower and the Due Process needs are less rigorous. So why do we have some 7,500 enforcement officials at ICE operating in a quasi-law enforcement role? Make unlawful presence a crime and hire law enforcement officers to engage in real investigation and prosecution. Or retain a civil designation and use ordinary administrative process. There is no justification for LEO raids for an administrative violation. Nor is there justification for prolonged custodial detention for an administrative violation.



The difference between the Oakland laws & the Arizona law is that Oakland is not trying to enforce immigration law. Arizona was trying to do just that. You are over-reading the language in AZ v. US.

US immigration law does not make any attempt to occupy the field of regulating commercial trespass or customer/employee privacy. Federal administrative agents do not have an inherent right to conduct operations on the premises of private employers. They need a warrant to activate such a right.

There is not a good argument for preemption of the laws described here. The argument is even weaker for coerced police cooperation. Local police forces are under local authority. Absent obligatory legal process, local police forces are under no obligation to cooperate with federal administrative agencies.
You are not reading AZ v. US closely enough if you come to such conclusions. Indeed, the points you
make are distinctions without discernible differences for the purposes of this legal analysis. Both Arizona's and California's actions entered into an area that is controlled by the federal government and that was not ceded to state control: immigration (to various degrees with both states/examples, though). It is the fact that these states made any law in this area when the federal government has not allowed such that is impermissible. And federal authorities need no warrant to contact and have the cooperation of private businesses, something that the new CA laws impermissibly try to impose by forbidding certain types of cooperation without one (among other requirements).

Moreover, there need be no direct conflict (and a state need not be trying to actively enforce federal law) for the principles in AZ v. US to apply. As the Supreme Court held in that case:

Quote:
state laws are preempted when they conflict with federal law, including when they stand “as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress.”
California's laws (as challenged) do exactly that (i.e. they stand as a clear obstacle to the "accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress" by making it more difficult for federal agents to arrest illegal immigrants pursuant to laws enacted by Congress in a field that the federal government occupies), although, as I mentioned, there is a weaker argument as the laws apply to local police departments.

As for "coerced police cooperation," there is no effort by the federal government to make local police departments do anything. What California did, however, is forbid local police departments from cooperating with the federal government under certain circumstances, even if the local police departments want to do so. It is far from clear whether CA has the authority to do such.

There DOJ has an excellent case for preemption, at least as the challenge applies to two parts of the laws in question.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
13,061 posts, read 7,219,545 times
Reputation: 50044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyp25 View Post
This is a joyful emotional response. Yes.

hmmmm. Chicago? I lived there for 25+ years... How do you like driving up ashland and not seeing a single sign that is in english? Or how about all the illegals that fill up cook county jail?

Why California? Well maybe because they are leading the charge for the most lawlessness regarding cooperation with federal laws. Their mayors also obstruct justice and puts federal agents lives in danger.

Chicago will have their turn next. Emanuel's crooked behind is going to be toasted along with his buddy congressman guiterrez

Sounds like that one metaphor....If you chop the head off the snake, you disable the entire problem.

You might also disable the 6th largest economy in the world as well. Illegals contribute a large number to California's total GDP. It's always all about the coin. While illegals may be beneficial to one area, they could be devastating to another, Instead of trying to disrupt the economy in California, why not find a way to tax it and regulate it? The one size fits all myopic build the wall without understanding the full consequences is simple minded.

To be honest with you. I feel safer in those neighborhoods with "ethnic" signs then I do in neighborhoods with the hood mentality. I spent a lot of time in China Town in Chicago by myself seeking alternative medicine with a real Chinese doctor and traditional Chinese medicine. The Chinese were peaceful people, but China Town is a dangerous area because of the hood element. If we could find a way to deport those American's and keep the Chinese, we'd have an amazing culture that you would never experience unless you travel abroad. We have a vibrant Muslim area that I've never once felt unsafe in, and an Indian area that makes you feel like you're in India. The food is amazing, and again, we'd never have that rich diverse experience in vanilla town only. You can keep the hood. I'd never go there for any reason.

I agree that all people should respect our rule of law, and yes, that applies to illegals. I also agree that one size does not fit all, and intelligent decisions are better then emotional, hate fueled bigoted ones.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:17 PM
 
11,560 posts, read 5,534,663 times
Reputation: 9898
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy View Post
You might also disable the 6th largest economy in the world as well. Illegals contribute a large number to California's total GDP. It's always all about the coin. While illegals may be beneficial to one area, they could be devastating to another, Instead of trying to disrupt the economy in California, why not find a way to tax it and regulate it? The one size fits all myopic build the wall without understanding the full consequences is simple minded.

To be honest with you. I feel safer in those neighborhoods with "ethnic" signs then I do in neighborhoods with the hood mentality. I spent a lot of time in China Town in Chicago by myself seeking alternative medicine with a real Chinese doctor and traditional Chinese medicine. The Chinese were peaceful people, but China Town is a dangerous area because of the hood element. If we could find a way to deport those American's and keep the Chinese, we'd have an amazing culture that you would never experience unless you travel abroad. We have a vibrant Muslim area that I've never once felt unsafe in, and an Indian area that makes you feel like you're in India. The food is amazing, and again, we'd never have that rich diverse experience in vanilla town only. You can keep the hood. I'd never go there for any reason.

I agree that all people should respect our rule of law, and yes, that applies to illegals. I also agree that one size does not fit all, and intelligent decisions are better then emotional, hate fueled bigoted ones.
Per the bolded --- Illegals take far, far more than they give. Either they are working jobs and getting paid under the table (which is tax evasion) or using a fake or stolen SSN (which is ID theft). Those getting paid under the table aren't paying any taxes, thus the burden is on the taxpayers when it comes to the services illegals use. There is nothing "beneficial" about hiring illegals. Period. Those who support hiring illegals are supporting the use of cheap, illegal, exploitable labor.

Businesses who either hire illegals or cater to them are diseased businesses that need to die.

BTW, we can't deport American citizens who were born here. You bring up a good point---we have many homegrown lowlifes and thus don't need to import anymore.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:37 PM
 
31,722 posts, read 14,631,102 times
Reputation: 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Per the bolded --- Illegals take far, far more than they give. Either they are working jobs and getting paid under the table (which is tax evasion) or using a fake or stolen SSN (which is ID theft). Those getting paid under the table aren't paying any taxes, thus the burden is on the taxpayers when it comes to the services illegals use. There is nothing "beneficial" about hiring illegals. Period. Those who support hiring illegals are supporting the use of cheap, illegal, exploitable labor.

Businesses who either hire illegals or cater to them are diseased businesses that need to die.

BTW, we can't deport American citizens who were born here. You bring up a good point---we have many homegrown lowlifes and thus don't need to import anymore.
I have to laugh when diversity is brought up as justification for illegal immigration. We don't already have every conceivable ethnic group already living in our country legally? So where's the hatred, bigotry and so-called emotionalism in enforcing our immigration laws against those here illegally?


As for making comparisons as to how much better certain ethnic groups are that's a fallacy also. Every ethnic group has their good and bad people and no ethnic group or culture is superior to any other.

Last edited by Oldglory; 03-10-2018 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,256 posts, read 13,743,415 times
Reputation: 11423
Law and Order .
Make America Safe Again .
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:23 PM
 
3,408 posts, read 5,136,605 times
Reputation: 2432
Trump doesn't care about winning California votes. It's all about the electoral college. Imagine how many more votes he gets in states that matter, if he wins this. California will likely make Trump win on 2020, due to this awesome set up, CA did for him. By the way, I'm in CA, and voted for Trump.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,256 posts, read 13,743,415 times
Reputation: 11423
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixTheCat View Post
Trump doesn't care about winning California votes. It's all about the electoral college. Imagine how many more votes he gets in states that matter, if he wins this. California will likely make Trump win on 2020, due to this awesome set up, CA did for him. By the way, I'm in CA, and voted for Trump.
Many have been brainwashed by the left and MSM to believe that illegal aliens are a positive. When the stats actually come out about how much crime illegal aliens have been committing...I don't think that there will be much support for them even in CA.

The left claims sanctuary cities are safer, but if you zoom in and look at the neighborhoods that have the most illegals they are far from safe. These are high crime areas. A city like L.A for example is huge the higher income/low crime areas aren't where the illegal aliens live.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:29 PM
 
3,408 posts, read 5,136,605 times
Reputation: 2432
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Per the bolded --- Illegals take far, far more than they give. Either they are working jobs and getting paid under the table (which is tax evasion) or using a fake or stolen SSN (which is ID theft). Those getting paid under the table aren't paying any taxes, thus the burden is on the taxpayers when it comes to the services illegals use. There is nothing "beneficial" about hiring illegals. Period. Those who support hiring illegals are supporting the use of cheap, illegal, exploitable labor.

Businesses who either hire illegals or cater to them are diseased businesses that need to die.

BTW, we can't deport American citizens who were born here. You bring up a good point---we have many homegrown lowlifes and thus don't need to import anymore.
This is true. Those hurt would be illegals and companies who can only be in business by cheating. No one else gets a net benefit. These are parasites and those who employ them are aids to parasites, getting rich on illegal business practices.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,256 posts, read 13,743,415 times
Reputation: 11423
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixTheCat View Post
This is true. Those hurt would be illegals and companies who can only be in business by cheating. No one else gets a net benefit. These are parasites and those who employ them are aids to parasites, getting rich on illegal business practices.
Recent example of a business hiring illegals and taking advantage of that situation. The article doesn't mention they are illegals. But says they are mostly latino workers. Car washes are notorious for hiring illegals though at least in CA.
Illegals are also more likely to keep quiet about being ripped off...for obvious reasons..


Southern California car wash mogul cited for cheating 700 workers and destroying evidence




https://www.ocregister.com/2018/03/0...ying-evidence/
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