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Old 04-07-2018, 05:20 PM
 
31,463 posts, read 14,559,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Not happening. All the wealthy people who publicly complain are the ones who privately hire them. Cost effectiveness "trumps" policy anytime.

Funny, I haven't heard any wealthy people who hire illegal aliens complaining about them. Why would when they are making them richer? Many wealthy people are Democrats. In fact there are more rich Democrats that Republicans. The rich live behind gated communities where they don't have to deal with the trash and crime.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:23 PM
 
10,683 posts, read 3,738,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantiquity View Post
I find the above rather naive...

One: the majority of people who come by air come with a visa so they are not illegal at the time of their arrival, only after their visa expires. And yes the US government has a problem keeping track of over stayers. But the majority of illegal aliens do come across our southern border.

Two: It should be the responsible of the employer to verify if a employee is eligible for work be it e-verify or what ever. If the US government would implement e-verify the problem of hiring illegals would go away and a lot would self deport because jobs would dry up. It seems to me its mostly democrats and some republicans who are not behind e-verify.

Three: While there are laws about non-citizens getting benefits they are mostly ignored in places like California. The fact is there is a difference between non-citizens and illegal aliens. Different rules apply.
Visit your local Home Depot early in the morning and see how many contractors stop and pick up day labor which a responsible person would know they are paying them under the table... Your tax comment is fictitious. I doubt that even lawn maintenance illegals are paying taxes.

Four: Entering the country illegally is a criminal offense. California has over 30% illegal aliens in their prison population.



Illegal Immigrants Accounted for Nearly 37 Percent of Federal Sentences in FY 2014 | Breitbart

Five: Simple fix...e-verify.
I am a number of things - naive not among them.

750,000 over stayers. Roughly 300,000 caught at the southern borders. So if they catch half or even a thrid the over stayers are stilll the bigger share.

EVerify is not effective and will likely never be. Even in TX they have been unable to pass legislation to enforce eVerify for state contractor employment.

Permanent residents are eligible for some programs after a few years. Illegal aliens are not but their us citizen children are. Legal and illegal aliens pay local taxes and receive local services including education. The rules in CA are exactly the same as the other states.

It is pretty well established that illegal aliens commit less crimes than their native equivalents.

Briebart stuff is pure garbage. Simply reflects that many federal arrests are for immigration violations.

Something close to half of the illegal aliensare already working off the books. Push everify and it goes up...but they do not go home.

Cost to actually attempt to deport the illegals would likely go past 100 billion dollars. And might still not work.. And could well lead to catastrophic civil unrest.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:25 PM
 
31,463 posts, read 14,559,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt View Post
Once again, you must be reminded that the draft took anybody/everybody who was living here during World War II.

You're going all the way back to World War II? How many illegal aliens did we have back then? I'm aware that in time of war the military can draft anyone but there was no war when the DACAs were allowed to join the military by Obama in direct conflict with the rules of joining it.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:32 PM
 
10,683 posts, read 3,738,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
Incorrect all around.

Their very presence is a violation of black letter law.

8 USC 1132
There is no such law.

But just go ahead and quote it.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:34 PM
 
292 posts, read 100,342 times
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True to the above post by AFTrEFKt

I do not feel terribly sorry for many of them...and I state that as someone who had to go thru the process myself.

How many of the current group of illegals in the USA have started the process and applied for citizenship? Ask yourself that one...where are the current numbers on those who are currently in the system, waiting for their court date? Those people, I am OK with.

NOT as many as one would like to Believe have pursued the path to citizenship, why? Because they are waiting very very patiently for the next political amnesty to go thru.

Reagan did it, Bush 41 did it....get the picture guys?

There are plenty of free services for thèse people, especially free and very low cost legal aid services.

This is on top of all the free services they get once they cross the border ...lots of free gibs, folks...you.have.no.idea....Gringo.

18 years off and on in Texas, knowing social workers, CASA advocates , legal aid assistants and immigration attorneys really opened my eyes.

Literally what goes out to these people ( who often are not in poverty by legal standards) thru financial aid and assistance could make a large dent in the cost of Universal healthcare for US citizens....or more aid to US parents attempting to put their children thru college....it has been stated that most middle class families could be eligible for more Pell grants, federal aid to get their kids thru school debt free if we stopped shouldering the cost of these free loaders.

Remember the average US family of 4 typically makes well under 70-80k in the US, and that is with both parents working....the average income is more in the 50-60K range. With state college tuition costing at least 12-50k a year....the average family can no afford, and the student ends up with huge debt.

But every Hispanic that I knew in Texas got a free ride thru college, based on low income ( many illegal Hispanics are not that low on the income scale, it is that much of their income is under the table. Maids, landscapers, building trades, waiters and restaurants and hotel staff. In some home health care aids and assistants.) and minority status.

My sister was laid off as an automotive engineer back in the mid 2000's. She cleaned houses, huge houses in a high end neighborhoods. One house took her 7 hours and she made 350 bucks for that house. She never charged less than 200 for 4-5 hours, depending on what was needed to achieve what the homeowners desired. Sometimes she cleaned two a day for next door neighbors. Remember, this is often tax free money.

This has been my experience:
While I lived in Houston Texas I could not get a housekeeper to surface clean ( no deep cleaning, laundry, shopping, straightening closets, putting away things...none of that just straight cleaning) my first two floors for under 200 bucks. That was typically for three hours, in and out...and I was to provide the cleaning products.
The third floor was DH office, and he did his own thing there, so the maid did nothing on that floor.

Before you say tough stuff, clean your own darn house. Unfortunately I spend some time in a wheelchair when my muscles weaken out on me....I have a neuromuscular disorder, so I cannot do the chemical cleaning anymore. so my insurance helps foot the bill.

So figure out the tax free income for many of these maids....my last one actually bragged to me about how much she made under the table. And how her last homeowner that she worked for paid for her dental work. Needless to say...she moved onto a private family who provided her with a car, insurance and paid time off...good for her...

Although I hoped that the family paid withholding taxes on her!

Hint: last maid made 65k tax free last year. I Do not think that she liked the fact that my insurance took out income tax on what she was paid. And she found greener pastures elsewhere

Last edited by Celiene61; 04-07-2018 at 05:46 PM..
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:59 PM
 
2,427 posts, read 783,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
I am a number of things - naive not among them.

750,000 over stayers. Roughly 300,000 caught at the southern borders. So if they catch half or even a thrid the over stayers are stilll the bigger share.

EVerify is not effective and will likely never be. Even in TX they have been unable to pass legislation to enforce eVerify for state contractor employment.

Permanent residents are eligible for some programs after a few years. Illegal aliens are not but their us citizen children are. Legal and illegal aliens pay local taxes and receive local services including education. The rules in CA are exactly the same as the other states.

It is pretty well established that illegal aliens commit less crimes than their native equivalents.

Briebart stuff is pure garbage. Simply reflects that many federal arrests are for immigration violations.

Something close to half of the illegal aliensare already working off the books. Push everify and it goes up...but they do not go home.

Cost to actually attempt to deport the illegals would likely go past 100 billion dollars. And might still not work.. And could well lead to catastrophic civil unrest.
My guess is that the ones caught at the border are less educated/less skilled, and far more costly to society than the over-stayers. My guess is also that most of the criminal element are from the southern border crossers vs the over-stayers. Many of the over-stayers came on education or tourist visas, and thus are not real likely to be the peasants coming across the southern border. I'm not saying the over-stayers shouldn't be booted out too, they should, but they are far less of a burden on the taxpayers.
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:23 PM
 
292 posts, read 100,342 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
No support for the wall.,
The majority of the illegals come in by air not the border.
There is no place near enough support to implement broad everify.
There are benefits to non citizens and they will remain. They are taxpayers.
Many if not most are not criminals. They are deportable but have committed no crime.
The laws are simply unenforceable. Way too expensive.
A) Many illegals are not taxpayers, as they often work under the table, tax free. It is the nature of many of the jobs they hold. Housekeepers, maids, landscapers, construction workers and craftsmen. Waiters and other hospitality workers. Private and home healthcare aids. Illegals who work for small shops and factories are often paid under the table.

B) The employer saves money via not paying withholding and social security taxes. They often pay the illegals less, on the grounds that they are receiving tax free funds. If you did not pay taxes, your income would be 25% or so higher, depending on your tax bracket.

C) Said illegals, who are working but not paying taxes, or claiming much of an income, are able to maintain a low income level, which allows them to receive benefits. The benefit package does depend on which state they reside.

D) while many illegals are not criminals, and as such should have a easy time pursing US citizenship. But the fact is many have broke the law, often several times, and this makes them criminals. Legally it next to impossible to apply for citizenship if you have a significant criminal record. Pot raps and small time drug dealing blows their chances on citizenship.

Higher level criminals do not want citizenship, why the h*ll would they? It is much easier to locate them, arrest them, and take them into custody for their latest crime. The US is plain and purposefully ignorant on how they handle the situation and these perps. They know that the US is basically ignoring the problem. They are aware that the elites and top level executives and the shareholders want them here....for the labor, and for other nefarious purposes. Most of which would provoke disbelief in J Q Public, but the Mexicans sure know about it.

D) The Wall? No problem, Victor Obane in Hungry threw up a wall so quick it made your head spin. While their border is smaller than ours, He had the military quickly build a large, barbed wire fence which successfully kept out most of the refuges from "said war torn countries...which we all know were economic refugees, mostly from African, pursuing the European benefit package" so yes Bob and Carol, a wall is possible and it will work

Financing for the wall? Easy,stop all illegal immigrants into the country until further notice, and cut out the free hand outs for those illegals who are here and are scamming the system. Start transitioning those who are working into taxpayers, and get them on the path to citizenship.

IF for whatever reason.....they cannot, nor will not pursue citizenship and all it entails, then they need a free ticket back to their nation State of origination ......which, BTW would prove your assumption of whether most illegals come via foot, train, auto or first class air ( and over stay their visa...which is a completely different issue.)

Last edited by Celiene61; 04-07-2018 at 06:31 PM..
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:30 PM
 
31,463 posts, read 14,559,147 times
Reputation: 8347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celiene61 View Post
A) Many illegals are not taxpayers, as they often work under the table, tax free. It is the nature of many of the jobs they hold. Housekeepers, maids, landscapers, construction workers and craftsmen. Waiters and other hospitality workers. Private and home healthcare aids. Ilegals who work for small shops and factories are often paid under the table.

B) The employer saves money via not paying withholding and social security taxes. They often pay the illegals less, on the grounds that they are receiving tax free funds. If you did not pay taxes, your income would be 25% or so higher, depending on your tax bracket.

C) Said illegals, who are working but not paying taxes, or not claiming much of an income, are able to maintain the extremely low income level, which allows them to receive benefits. The benefit package does depend on which state they reside.

D) while many illegals are not criminals, and as such should have a easy time pursing US citizenship, but many are criminals and this makes it next to impossible to apply for citizenship. Pot raps and small time drug dealing blows their chances on citizenship.
Higher level criminals do not want citizenship, why the h*ll would they? It is much easier to locate them, arrest them, and take them into custody for their latest crime. The US is plain and purposefully ignorant on how they handle the situation and these perps. They know that the US is basically ignoring the problem. They are aware that the elites and top level executives and the shareholders want them here....for the labor, and for other nefarious purposes. Most of which would provoke disbelief in J Q Public, but the Mexicans sure know about it.

D) The Wall? No problem, Victor Obane in Hungry threw up a wall so quick it made your head spin. While their border is smaller than ours, He had the military quickly build a large, barbed wire fence which successfully kept out most of the refuges from "said war torn countries...which we all know were economic refugees, mostly from African, pursuing the European benifit package" so yes Bob and Carol, a wall is possible and it will work

Financing for the wall? Easy,stop all illegal immigrants into the country until further notice, and cut out the free hand outs for those illegals who are here and are scamming the system. Start transitioning those who are working into taxpayers, and get them on the path to citizenship.

IF for whatever reason.....they cannot, nor will not pursue citizenship and all it entails, then they need a free ticket back to their nation of origination ......which, BTW would prove your assumption of whether most illegals come via foot, train, auto or first class air ( and over stay their visa...which is a completely different issue.)

I agree with you for the most part but where I disagree with you is allowing them to remain here and putting them on a path to citizenship just for the sake of taxing them without them returning to their own country and applying to come back legally and within our annual quotas and waiting their turn in line. Once Americans have taken the jobs back that they were holding then we can allow them to return only if there are job openings for them.
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:53 PM
 
10,683 posts, read 3,738,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celiene61 View Post
A) Many illegals are not taxpayers, as they often work under the table, tax free. It is the nature of many of the jobs they hold. Housekeepers, maids, landscapers, construction workers and craftsmen. Waiters and other hospitality workers. Private and home healthcare aids. Ilegals who work for small shops and factories are often paid under the table.
Living in a town where there is actually an agreement between the IRS and the workers as to how much they can cheat I do not find this surprising. But it has little to do with illegal aliens. Much of the work force here plays those games even though they are mostly legal.

However they all pay property tax and sales tax whether directly or indirectly.

Quote:
B) The employer saves money via not paying withholding and social security taxes. They often pay the illegals less, on the grounds that they are receiving tax free funds. If you did not pay taxes, your income would be 25% or so higher, depending on your tax bracket.
Again true. Nothing to do specifically with illegals. Been done in the Construction Industry since time immemorial.

Quote:
C) Said illegals, who are working but not paying taxes, or not claiming much of an income, are able to maintain the extremely low income level, which allows them to receive benefits. The benefit package does depend on which state they reside.
Not eligible in their own rights for anything. Their US Children may be. But that would be the same as any lower income family playing that game. This is actually one of the reasons we should try and legalize the illegals. So this trend does not get worse.

Quote:
D) while many illegals are not criminals, and as such should have a easy time pursing US citizenship, but many are criminals and this makes it next to impossible to apply for citizenship. Pot raps and small time drug dealing blows their chances on citizenship.
Higher level criminals do not want citizenship, why the h*ll would they? It is much easier to locate them, arrest them, and take them into custody for their latest crime. The US is plain and purposefully ignorant on how they handle the situation and these perps. They know that the US is basically ignoring the problem. They are aware that the elites and top level executives and the shareholders want them here....for the labor, and for other nefarious purposes. Most of which would provoke disbelief in J Q Public, but the Mexicans sure know about it.
The illegal aliens cannot meet the US requirements for immigration. Never could. That is why the sneak in. When in they wisely distrust the Immigration people. Classicsl example...a locsl Mexican who has been pursuing citizenship for years and thought she was about there gets hauled away to drop her in Mexico for a 20 year old deportation order of which she had no knowledge. Saved by a big family and neighborhood organizations but a wonderful example of why you don't trust ICE,

Quote:
D) The Wall? No problem, Victor Obane in Hungry threw up a wall so quick it made your head spin. While their border is smaller than ours, He had the military quickly build a large, barbed wire fence which successfully kept out most of the refuges from "said war torn countries...which we all know were economic refugees, mostly from African, pursuing the European benifit package" so yes Bob and Carol, a wall is possible and it will work
Silliness. Explain how that works on the Rio Grand when the refugees intend to give themselves up.

Quote:
Financing for the wall? Easy,stop all illegal immigrants into the country until further notice, and cut out the free hand outs for those illegals who are here and are scamming the system. Start transitioning those who are working into taxpayers, and get them on the path to citizenship.

IF for whatever reason.....they cannot, nor will not pursue citizenship and all it entails, then they need a free ticket back to their nation of origination ......which, BTW would prove your assumption of whether most illegals come via foot, train, auto or first class air ( and over stay their visa...which is a completely different issue.)
You really don't understand this at all. The illegals will sign up in an instant for citizenship. But we have no intention of offering it to them. They will even pay for it given reasonable terms.

The wall is simply a distraction. It will never matter except as a strawman.
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
4,513 posts, read 1,940,056 times
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I knew this would be bad when the OP put illegally in quotes.

Why do we have to make it easier to be a citizen? In what ways does that benefit the United States? Or is the point of all this to say we've lost the will to enforce the law so let's reward them for overwhelming us? It's kind of like a parent whose kid keeps breaking curfew so the parent says OK no curfew, I can't stop you so I'm going to make it even easier for you to disrespect me in my house and do whatever the heck you want.

We already accept one million legal immigrants a year and that includes things you listed like a citizenship test, language fluency (unless you're over 55 and have been here 20 years), and no criminal background. Having a green card but not citizenship is already temporary permission to be here. You could just say increase the quota for legal immigration, instead of rewarding scofflaws with these steps that legal people already follow.
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