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Old 12-12-2006, 03:27 PM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdizzle View Post
Yes, I understand the video is coming from a biased source, and anyone watching it is well aware. But what you can't argue is that they were taking direct quotes from some of the most powerful latinos in America (like the mayor of LA, head of La Raza). But, while you make comparisons to the white supremecists as an example of fringe conservatism--are these people supported by our elected officials? Yeah right! They would be ran out immediately because of the crap that was spewing out of their mouths and Americans wouldn't stand for it. I don't think we should stand for our government courting groups that advocate this kind of treasonous behaviour within our own country. I mean, they are advocating a revolt and reconquista of the western U.S., isn't that treasonous? Granted, I support their free speech, but we should not allow them to have a forum for these types of radical ideas and provide government sanction.
The debate over Aztlan and the debate over MEChA are two separate things. What I take issue with is your characterization of MECha, an organization whose principles speak nothing of creating a separate nation. MEChA as an organization is the Chicano equivalent of the NAACP and equating MEChA with La Raza and saying that it advocated violence and separatism is akin to equating the NAACP with the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam. Are there extreme militants within MEChA who would love for Aztlan to be a reality? Of course there are, just as there are extremist fringes of every organization. So when you say that American politicans are affiliated with the organization, it's like saying they are affiliated with the NAACP, a group with some extremist fringe members but whose goals and objectives are nobel and who discourage any sort of this extremist behavior. You say that American politicians would be run out of town if they were to support a white nationalist. Well, you're right. They would. You would never see a candidate for U.S. president speaking at a Ku Klux Klan rally. You would however see them conversing with Minutemen or delivering a speech at Bob Jones University as many have in the past. These schools and people ARE supported by our elected officials. While neither group/school may be explicitly so overtly racist so as to cause a public outcry, both have many extremist members. There are some white nationalists amongst the Minutemen with extreme viewpoints who advocate creating a white homeland or violent means to acheive their goals. Is it fair to characterize all Minutemen as such? No. Likewise, it is not fair to take a few bad apples and make them representative of the organization of MEChA as a whole.

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-12-2006 at 03:59 PM..

 
Old 12-13-2006, 11:09 AM
 
597 posts, read 1,786,344 times
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Okay, what you're saying may be true. But, why are the heads of these organizations, like La Raza for instance, calling for the 'death of the gringos'? The president of La Raza--not some fringe elements. That was my point.
 
Old 12-14-2006, 12:06 AM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdizzle View Post
Okay, what you're saying may be true. But, why are the heads of these organizations, like La Raza for instance, calling for the 'death of the gringos'? The president of La Raza--not some fringe elements. That was my point.
The crux of your first post was dealing with MEChA and through erroneously linking it to the Aztlan movement, arguing that it wasn't worthy of any sort of public funding or support. As I said, Aztlan and Hispanic nationalism are separate issues and therefore those issues are irrelevant. The "death to the gringos" sentiment is not a mainstream sentiment and was never uttered by the president of La Raza. Even in the video you linked to, a propagandic video specifically designed to play on the fears of a brown invasion by zooming in on the handful of nationalist protesters and signs in the see of thousands, the lone voice advocating such a thing was a radical nobody professor, not some mainstream respected figure within the Latino community. The other voices heard only offered support for the rights of illegal immigrants and spoke of gaining political power through numbers which is hardly a concept unique to Latinos (Jews, women, evangelicals, etc. advocate the same thing) and did not mention, and I highly doubt support the Aztlan movement which is an extremist movement.

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-14-2006 at 12:37 AM..
 
Old 12-14-2006, 12:05 PM
 
597 posts, read 1,786,344 times
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Granted, I understand what you're saying. But, the president of La Raza did make those statements, although many years ago, on the San Antonio Evening News. I hope you're right about organizations like La Raza and MEChA. I just have issue with the fact that you have elected officials, like the mayor of LA, telling people that it is fine to be part of these extreme element nationalist groups, etc. It would be my assumption that a lot of people support or are sympathetic to those kinds of movements, at least in LA, otherwise people like the mayor wouldn't be up there talking about it, am I wrong?
 
Old 12-14-2006, 09:48 PM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdizzle View Post
Granted, I understand what you're saying. But, the president of La Raza did make those statements, although many years ago, on the San Antonio Evening News.
The quote was made by a man in 1969. I don't think viewpoints espoused by leaders nearly 40 years ago should be made applicable today in an effort to discredit the movements that they support(ed) which were oftentimes completely different from the forms their organization takes today. Should I quote George Wallace, an elected politican with actual power, from one of his many racist speeches during the same period in an effort to show the racism of the Republican party today? No. It wouldn't make any sense.

And for the record, the comment that he made was not a catch-all pronouncement to "kill all the gringos". He was essentially asked and stating that if they were to be met with violence, he advocated his supporters to defend themselves.

Additionally, the man, Jose Angel Gutierrez was the president of La Raza Unida, which is separate from the National Council of La Raza, which is the more mainstream movement generally accepted as the mouthpiece today.
Quote:
I hope you're right about organizations like La Raza and MEChA. I just have issue with the fact that you have elected officials, like the mayor of LA, telling people that it is fine to be part of these extreme element nationalist groups, etc. It would be my assumption that a lot of people support or are sympathetic to those kinds of movements, at least in LA, otherwise people like the mayor wouldn't be up there talking about it, am I wrong?
When did the mayor of Los Angeles say such a thing? He never said that he supported Aztlan, nor that he supported any form of Hispanic nationalism. He has spoken in favor of illegal immigrant amnesty, guest worker programs and of the empowering of Latinos and increasing their presence in the government but he has never made any sort of pronouncement encouraging Latinos to take up arms or reclaim any sort of lost territory. He was a member of MEChA during his time in college, but as I stated earlier, that says nothing about his position on Aztlan. In the video you linked to, he advocated those in attendance to not vote for those who were against giving illegal immigrants rights. He was expressing a political position of his. It is one that many people don't agree with, but far from a radical secessionist political position. How is this any different from Katherine Harris advocating only voting for Christians for office? Or of other congressmen taking up any number of issues (gay marriage, abortion, affirmative action, etc.) and telling their base voters the importance of it and encouraging them to do all that they can to support those in office with stances similar to their own? It isn't, and I get a bit annoyed when people try to link anyone brown-skinned who isn't 100% opposed to illegal immigration, to fringe groups in an effort to portray them as an instigator and supporter of some sort of brown invasion.

The Aztlan movement is no more a mainstream movement than the white nationalist movement to create Cascadia in the Pacific Northwest. It is supported by only a small militant group of Latinos. I could similarly piece together a video of a Minuteman march, focus on the handful of Neo-N-a-z-i (censored word) with their racist signs, insignia and apparel in attendance, edit in quotes from radical professors at Bob Jones University, racially insensitive quotes by Trent Lott and other politicians, then add a bit by Tom Tancredo that even if not outwardly racist, when grouped with the others, comes off that way, all edited with ominous music so as to convince those watching the video that white nationalism is a widespread movement and on the verge of realization when nothing is further from the truth. That is exactly what is happening here.

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-14-2006 at 10:39 PM.. Reason: spell out the censored word
 
Old 12-14-2006, 11:14 PM
 
597 posts, read 1,786,344 times
Reputation: 332
While I understand the context of that particular statement, this head of La Raza has a history of colorful statements in the past and I personally don't understand why he is heading this organization, even if those specific statements were over 30 years ago. Although, I see that I misquoted the mayor of LA. My apologies, the person who talked about being as radical as you want was this Fabian Nunez character, speaker of the CA assembly (is that not a powerful individual?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dullnboring View Post
...I get a bit annoyed when people try to link anyone brown-skinned who isn't 100% opposed to illegal immigration, to fringe groups in an effort to portray them as an instigator and supporter of some sort of brown invasion.
Okay, I'm not I'm not trying to make this a racial issue, to me it is a cultural and economic issue more than anything. But, regardless, my intent is not to make this a racial issue.

To be fair, a Zogby poll (2002) found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "the territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." We all know our history, so we know that went to war with Mexico and got what is currently the American southwest from that country. But, if we all agree that the vast numbers of illegals coming into this country are coming from Mexico, than we have to assume that a majority of those immigrants believe that the land they are coming to is rightfully Mexico's. A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.

Granted, none of these polls or statements are explicit support for Aztlan, but I feel that the sentiment that "this land BELONGS to us" in the illegal immigrant communty is stronger than you would appear to characterize it. It is my belief that this type of sentiment can be dangerous. Dullnboring, I think your opinion is well thought out and I appreciate the dialogue from an opposing viewpoint. Topics like this need good debate.
 
Old 12-16-2006, 05:54 PM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdizzle View Post
While I understand the context of that particular statement, this head of La Raza has a history of colorful statements in the past and I personally don't understand why he is heading this organization, even if those specific statements were over 30 years ago.
He's not heading the organization. His party, La Raza Unida, collapsed in the late 1970s and he has been a professor at various institutions since then.
Quote:
Although, I see that I misquoted the mayor of LA. My apologies, the person who talked about being as radical as you want was this Fabian Nunez character, speaker of the CA assembly (is that not a powerful individual?).
It should be noted that there is no video record of Fabian Nunez ever saying such a thing; only an audio clip which his camp denies is even him. It's possible that he's just trying to distance himself from saying something so stupid. It's also possible that anti-immigrant groups are purposely trying to smear him. Either situation wouldn't surprise me. If that was in fact him, then yes it was a stupid and irresponsible remark that he should be held accountable for. I have my doubts however as I would think that videotape would've been made public if he did in fact utter those words and I think a greater ruckus would've been created by the press.

I also must point out as you seem to be singling him and other Latino leaders out for their history in questionable groups and past racial statements, that this is not unique to Latino politicians. You said that a white politican would not be supported after making such statements. Strom Thurmond? Jesse Helms? Trent Lott? David Duke? George Allen? Hell, Robert Byrd was in the KKK! Latino politicians are just as susceptible as white politicians to making questionably racist remarks, but let's not pretend like this an area where Latinos are given a free pass when we have so many examples of white politicians who have behaved similarly and remained politically largely unscathed.
Quote:
Okay, I'm not I'm not trying to make this a racial issue, to me it is a cultural and economic issue more than anything. But, regardless, my intent is not to make this a racial issue.
Unfortunately, that is not the case for many people. Of course, some people such as yourself have their reasons for opposing immigration (either illegal or legal or neither or both) that have nothing to do with race so much as they do economics and other issues, but there is a definite racial undercurrent (not even subtle in many cases) to many people's positions, even here on this board (though not in this thread). I just tire of Latinos in the public eye constantly being lumped into some fringe group in an effort to feed into the paranoia about a sort of Latino invasion. It's not something unique to Latinos. Jews in the media and politics are constantly being taken to task for being "slaves to Israel" and Muslims and Arab-Americans are routinely subtlely slurred and erroneously linked to fundamentalist organizations. It's twisted and the roots of it are indeed racist.

........ (continued in next post since apparently my response was too many letters to be confined to one).....

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-16-2006 at 06:29 PM..
 
Old 12-16-2006, 05:56 PM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
To be fair, a Zogby poll (2002) found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "the territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." We all know our history, so we know that went to war with Mexico and got what is currently the American southwest from that country. But, if we all agree that the vast numbers of illegals coming into this country are coming from Mexico, than we have to assume that a majority of those immigrants believe that the land they are coming to is rightfully Mexico's. A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.
Thoughts are one thing. Action is another. If you were to poll Native Americans in this country, what percentage would say "white people are unfairly inhabiting our land"? I would venture to say the overwhelming majority. Yet, are they taking action to push whites and others off of their land? No. There's degrees of beliefs. A person may feel that parts of American land are Mexican, but is this something they feel so strongly about that they would actually be willing to take that land, perhaps by force and taking up arms, or by giving the Mexican government (a government they're fleeing for various reasons mind you, that most Mexicans are not supporters of) the power to annex such land? I sincerely doubt it. Basically, like every single nation on Earth, we have many unsavory elements to our past. The world and today's independent countries have been carved out of wars, colonialism, genocide, murder, rape, slave labor, etc. If you were to ask similar question in any country with a history of border issues, you'd get the same results but that doesn't mean we're on the verge of a militant takeover. People realize the history of this country, but they also understand the modern complexities that come with things such as secession and wars which means that while they emotionally may feel a certain way, their logic realizes the impracticality in it.
Quote:
Granted, none of these polls or statements are explicit support for Aztlan, but I feel that the sentiment that "this land BELONGS to us" in the illegal immigrant communty is stronger than you would appear to characterize it. It is my belief that this type of sentiment can be dangerous.
This is where we will perhaps never see eye to eye. While I certainly acknowledge the danger of such a sentiment, I do not believe that such a sentiment is widespread. The fringe groups always get more coverage in the media. Why focus on the protesters wave the American flags when you can focus on the one burning the flag with a sign saying "We Will Soon Overcome YOU!" when your intent is to grab headlines and galvanize the American public? I hear so many complaints and such wild criticism about illegals that I can't help but wonder if anyone has ever talked to an illegal (or legal) immigrant? People seem so distanced from them and come to all sorts of conclusions based on what they don't know. I do not believe your average immigrant (not the radicals), legal or illegal, has ANY interest on turning this country into a carbon copy of the country that they left behind and if you talk to them, they will usually extoll upon the virtues of life in the United States and particular attributes that they love that they do not have at home.

Just reading through threads on this board, illegals are portrayed as barbaric savages intent on taking over the country who will drive drunk, beat up your children, rape your wives, steal your cars, spit in your face and impose a sort of Mexican martial law on your neighborhood. The majority of people coming to this country are just that, individual people, with families, beliefs, faith and values. There are of course bad apples (murderers, rapists, sex offenders, etc.) among them as there would be in any group, but the way people talk about them, you'd think that they weren't even human. I've seen posters on this board joke (?) about having target practice on the Mexican border, putting alligators in the Rio Grande, running their cars into groups of day laborers, and using illegals to test out minefields in Iraq among other things. I realize their entrance into the country is illegal which means they are criminals, but there seems to be no humanity whatsoever shown as if these people were the lowest of scum. Illegals resorted to illegal means to enter this country which is wrong. No doubt about that. But let's portray the situation as it actually is and not over-exaggerate in an effort to feed into this paranoia that has been served up lately. That's what I take issue with in this situation. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs on the subject, but I just don't like a biased and blatantly wrong situation presented as fact when it is not.

...(still not done yet)....

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-16-2006 at 06:35 PM..
 
Old 12-16-2006, 06:04 PM
 
Location: In exile, plotting my coup
2,408 posts, read 13,151,352 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
Dullnboring, I think your opinion is well thought out and I appreciate the dialogue from an opposing viewpoint. Topics like this need good debate.
Thank you. I feel the same way. I generally do not debate politics on this board and steer clear of the debate on illegal immigration because I don't find people here to be remotely receptive to an actual debate on the issue, and also because I just don't care to spend more time on here than I already do, debating politics. Something about your post though just compelled me to respond. Partially, it's because I'm sick to death of all the threads dealing with illegal immigration on here. That has nothing to do with my particular stance on the issue which differs from 90% of people on here (although to be honest, I don't have a clear-cut stance or opinion on what to do to solve the problem with illegal immigration), but it's just like anything where once you see it being talked about over and over and over again, whether it be people constantly complaining about illegals as is the case here, or whether people were constantly starting threads about the stock market or hairstyles or the Beatles or whatever. At a certain point, you just want to scream "ENOUGH!" I didn't mean to come on and attack you for your opinions, so I hope you don't feel that way; but just felt for whatever reason that I had to jump in before this turned into another thread full of xenophobic propaganda because I'm just getting tired of it creeping into seemingly every other thread on here.

Last edited by dullnboring; 12-16-2006 at 06:36 PM..
 
Old 12-17-2006, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
2,806 posts, read 14,971,091 times
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Yeah Mexicans definitely suck... no two way about that.
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