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Old 03-11-2019, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,168 posts, read 4,262,705 times
Reputation: 1314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
It is called circular migration, not illegal entry ... well, at least that use to be the case until the current administration with its policies (not law) enacted our militarized border. Migrant workers came to the u.s. from Mexico, work the farms, then at the end of the season would return to Mexico. Now, they can not return to Mexico ... not if they want to continue to work, because any type of migration is deemed illegal (through policy, not law) entry in the u.s. today.


Why Border Enforcement Backfired

"In this article, we explain how and why the unprecedented militarization of the Mexico-U.S. border not only failed in its attempt to reduce undocumented migration, but backfired by increasing the rate of undocumented population growth and turning what had been a circular flow of male workers going to three states into a settled population of families living in 50 states."
___________________________

Pres Bush spoke out saying, 'spoiled Americans', imo, more right than wrong in that statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
The current administration wasn't around in the 60, 70 and 80s.
And that matters how? The same playbook continues to be used in addressing this issue, while policies (not law) are being acted upon without real legal (going through congress) laws on what constitutes legal or illegal citizens. (I've given you a window, use it)

A summary of that document above written in 2016:

Tighter enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border backfired, researchers find

“Mass immigration from Mexico has ended and won’t be coming back owing to the decline of Mexican fertility from 6.5 children per woman in the 1960s to around 2.2 children per woman today, roughly replacement level,” Massey said. “Labor force growth in Mexico has dropped sharply and Mexico is now becoming an aging society in which fewer and fewer people are in the migration-prone ages of 15-30, so the pressure is off in a demographic sense.”
________________
How's that for a kicker, so what are we doing, really? With the vamped up boarder securities and throwing kids in the poky? (breaking news: journalist, reporters and photo journalist covering the boarder situation are being blacklisted and surveiled)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastwardBound View Post
The fact is that both parties have been consumed by neo-liberal ideas of globalization and cheap labor which benefit the wealthy.

This is the reason why the populism of Trump and Sanders, whereby American workers are put first is popular. Sanders has in the past, been opposed to 'open borders' because he correctly understands that that harms American workers. That has also been essentially, the central message of Trump's rhetoric.

If we want to stop the exploitation of illegal aliens and to protect the jobs and wages of American working class workers, we need to end illegal immigration.

Whether the wall or whatever works, something needs to be done now. Yes, mandatory e-verify is an essential ingredient of that, but it won't stop it altogether, since most illegals work for cash anyway. It makes absolutely no sense that American citizens must get permission from the government to be able to work, via being forced to sign paperwork for taxation purposes, yet people who shouldn't even be here can work wherever they want.
Quote:
If we want to stop the exploitation of illegal aliens and to protect the jobs and wages of American working class workers, we need to end illegal immigration.
First what constitutes illegal immigration and where did it come from?
The Birth of ‘Illegal’ Immigration


Makes a person wonder, wth?

The population of undocumented workers in the u.s. (not circular migration which is suppose to be legal migration) and the population of slave laborers in 1860, is so close to the same amount, it made me go, hum. (history in the u.s. from 1860 forward shows a huge gap in this society, one that is going wider)

People are being horn swaggled ... easy enough done if peoples hearts are in the right place ...
Quote:
protect the jobs and wages of American working class workers
That's what they say right? Do you really think the IT middle class worker making that middle class pay wage is going to push back away from their desk, stop code writing for xyz company so as they can go pick fruit, or round up cattle for slauter? ~ i shake my head ~

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastwardBound View Post
We should look at how other countries handle this. When I was in Australia on a Working Holiday Visa, I worked on what is called the Harvest Trail, harvesting melons along with thousands of other people who do this work. I also know that in South Korea, where I lived for a long while, students and the army are used to assist farmers to harvest their crops when the time comes.

We could put in place some sort of national service, whereby young people spend their summers traveling around helping on farms.
Obama gave that a shot, trying to make a national service mandatory, it went over like a lead brick.

Adding this just because:
Stanford scholar examines the spike in unauthorized Mexican migration in the 1970s and how it came about


Three myths of U.S. immigration


You know what I think? I think people need to stop worrying about what the 'legal' thing to do here is and do the 'right' thing. That's what I think.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:55 PM
 
9,590 posts, read 2,331,642 times
Reputation: 4381
Farmers used to bus in black workers from the south. They were housed in barracks type buildings for the season. Also local high school kids made money working on farms in the summer. By the way, those kids used to do construction and mow lawns and wash cars.

When LBJ created welfare to destroy the black family, black people didn't have to work so they had to bring in illegals.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
29,759 posts, read 12,638,032 times
Reputation: 21078
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilgrimsProgress View Post
Farmers used to bus in black workers from the south. They were housed in barracks type buildings for the season. Also local high school kids made money working on farms in the summer. By the way, those kids used to do construction and mow lawns and wash cars.

When LBJ created welfare to destroy the black family, black people didn't have to work so they had to bring in illegals.
You sure don't know much about migrant farm labor. Blacks did not replace Mexicans as farm workers after 1965, and this idea that school kids were picking crops? That was tried and was a spectacular failure.

Also, males- black or otherwise were not eligible for welfare, it has always been a program for women and their children, so much so that in many families the men had to leave the family in order for the family to get benefits. It's just pure made up nonsense that all black men went on welfare so they had to bring in illegals to work on farms.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:38 PM
 
34,588 posts, read 15,613,658 times
Reputation: 9204
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastwardBound View Post
The fact is that both parties have been consumed by neo-liberal ideas of globalization and cheap labor which benefit the wealthy.

This is the reason why the populism of Trump and Sanders, whereby American workers are put first is popular. Sanders has in the past, been opposed to 'open borders' because he correctly understands that that harms American workers. That has also been essentially, the central message of Trump's rhetoric.

If we want to stop the exploitation of illegal aliens and to protect the jobs and wages of American working class workers, we need to end illegal immigration.

Whether the wall or whatever works, something needs to be done now. Yes, mandatory e-verify is an essential ingredient of that, but it won't stop it altogether, since most illegals work for cash anyway. It makes absolutely no sense that American citizens must get permission from the government to be able to work, via being forced to sign paperwork for taxation purposes, yet people who shouldn't even be here can work wherever they want.
Exactly, not all illegals are here to work and many do work for cash so e-verify wont stop that. However, Trump had e-verify in his 2019 budget but who knows what has happened to it. It's not been the Republicans who have been against e-verify anyway it's been the Democrats and I have posted a link previously proving it.

I have also posted several links proving that the good walls in place have already deterred a large number of illegal aliens including the same sentiments of the Border Patrol and Homeland Security. Facts don't seem to matter to the anti-wall, pro-illegals though as they continue to repeat themselves over and over and remain in denial.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:40 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,865 posts, read 31,168,573 times
Reputation: 18465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
And that matters how? The same playbook continues to be used in addressing this issue, while policies (not law) are being acted upon without real legal (going through congress) laws on what constitutes legal or illegal citizens. (I've given you a window, use it)

A summary of that document above written in 2016:

Tighter enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border backfired, researchers find

“Mass immigration from Mexico has ended and won’t be coming back owing to the decline of Mexican fertility from 6.5 children per woman in the 1960s to around 2.2 children per woman today, roughly replacement level,” Massey said. “Labor force growth in Mexico has dropped sharply and Mexico is now becoming an aging society in which fewer and fewer people are in the migration-prone ages of 15-30, so the pressure is off in a demographic sense.”
________________
How's that for a kicker, so what are we doing, really? With the vamped up boarder securities and throwing kids in the poky? (breaking news: journalist, reporters and photo journalist covering the boarder situation are being blacklisted and surveiled)


First what constitutes illegal immigration and where did it come from?
The Birth of ‘Illegal’ Immigration


Makes a person wonder, wth?

The population of undocumented workers in the u.s. (not circular migration which is suppose to be legal migration) and the population of slave laborers in 1860, is so close to the same amount, it made me go, hum. (history in the u.s. from 1860 forward shows a huge gap in this society, one that is going wider)

People are being horn swaggled ... easy enough done if peoples hearts are in the right place ...
That's what they say right? Do you really think the IT middle class worker making that middle class pay wage is going to push back away from their desk, stop code writing for xyz company so as they can go pick fruit, or round up cattle for slauter? ~ i shake my head ~


Obama gave that a shot, trying to make a national service mandatory, it went over like a lead brick.

Adding this just because:
Stanford scholar examines the spike in unauthorized Mexican migration in the 1970s and how it came about


Three myths of U.S. immigration


You know what I think? I think people need to stop worrying about what the 'legal' thing to do here is and do the 'right' thing. That's what I think.
It matters because what you are blaming today started over 40 years ago. But, don't that get in the way of your rant.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:02 PM
 
9,590 posts, read 2,331,642 times
Reputation: 4381
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
You sure don't know much about migrant farm labor. Blacks did not replace Mexicans as farm workers after 1965, and this idea that school kids were picking crops? That was tried and was a spectacular failure.

Also, males- black or otherwise were not eligible for welfare, it has always been a program for women and their children, so much so that in many families the men had to leave the family in order for the family to get benefits. It's just pure made up nonsense that all black men went on welfare so they had to bring in illegals to work on farms.
You sound very confused. I didn't say blacks replaced Mexicans. It was the reverse.

High school kids in many rural areas, including my own, often made money in the summer working on farms. I remember being surprised that supermodel Cindy Crawford, who grew up in the midwest, talked about her school mates detassling corn.

I told you that LBJ broke up the black family when welfare appeared because black men had to leave the home. Same is true today I think, with women and kids being penalized if the boyfriend or baby daddy lives with them.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,168 posts, read 4,262,705 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
It matters because what you are blaming today started over 40 years ago. But, don't that get in the way of your rant.
What began over 40 years ago is still current events of today ... if it is not, please update me.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
29,759 posts, read 12,638,032 times
Reputation: 21078
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilgrimsProgress View Post
You sound very confused. I didn't say blacks replaced Mexicans. It was the reverse.

High school kids in many rural areas, including my own, often made money in the summer working on farms. I remember being surprised that supermodel Cindy Crawford, who grew up in the midwest, talked about her school mates detassling corn.

I told you that LBJ broke up the black family when welfare appeared because black men had to leave the home. Same is true today I think, with women and kids being penalized if the boyfriend or baby daddy lives with them.
whatever...I'm 72 and have lived in California all of my life except for a stint in Reno and there have never been a significant number of black migrant farm hands. Blacks and other minorities came here during the war to work in the shipyards, they stayed and most found factory work, they did not go out and pick strawberries after the war. There were blacks who worked the fields in the south but that was a regional thing and I doubt if they retired and lived on welfare after 1965, they most likely found better job opportunities after the passage of the civil rights act and pursued them.

I gave you an example of what happened when the government tried to get kids to work in the fields, it was a failure yet you insist that that it was happening all over the place. Yes, in the midwest kids worked their parents farms and at times kids would help on other peoples farms that is not what we are talking about here, and there is one heck of a difference between detasseling corn and picking cotton or artichokes, try it sometime and see for yourself.

I agree that welfare has been a disaster and that it has had an impact on breaking up the family unit in welfare families, but that is not something you can place all the blame on LBJ, the welfare act passed while he was President was modified in 1968 to allow families with a father in the home to get welfare. But in 1981 Reagan imposed a rule that if a stepfather is in a home he is responsible for his children and those of his wife who are not his children. Anyway..that's another subject and probably should be discussed in another thread.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:44 AM
 
3,988 posts, read 1,145,042 times
Reputation: 2494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
And that matters how? The same playbook continues to be used in addressing this issue, while policies (not law) are being acted upon without real legal (going through congress) laws on what constitutes legal or illegal citizens. (I've given you a window, use it)

A summary of that document above written in 2016:

Tighter enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border backfired, researchers find

“Mass immigration from Mexico has ended and won’t be coming back owing to the decline of Mexican fertility from 6.5 children per woman in the 1960s to around 2.2 children per woman today, roughly replacement level,” Massey said. “Labor force growth in Mexico has dropped sharply and Mexico is now becoming an aging society in which fewer and fewer people are in the migration-prone ages of 15-30, so the pressure is off in a demographic sense.”
________________
How's that for a kicker, so what are we doing, really? With the vamped up boarder securities and throwing kids in the poky? (breaking news: journalist, reporters and photo journalist covering the boarder situation are being blacklisted and surveiled)


First what constitutes illegal immigration and where did it come from?
The Birth of ‘Illegal’ Immigration


Makes a person wonder, wth?

The population of undocumented workers in the u.s. (not circular migration which is suppose to be legal migration) and the population of slave laborers in 1860, is so close to the same amount, it made me go, hum. (history in the u.s. from 1860 forward shows a huge gap in this society, one that is going wider)

People are being horn swaggled ... easy enough done if peoples hearts are in the right place ...
That's what they say right? Do you really think the IT middle class worker making that middle class pay wage is going to push back away from their desk, stop code writing for xyz company so as they can go pick fruit, or round up cattle for slauter? ~ i shake my head ~


Obama gave that a shot, trying to make a national service mandatory, it went over like a lead brick.

Adding this just because:
Stanford scholar examines the spike in unauthorized Mexican migration in the 1970s and how it came about


Three myths of U.S. immigration


You know what I think? I think people need to stop worrying about what the 'legal' thing to do here is and do the 'right' thing. That's what I think.
I agree with you to a point. But, what is right? Is it right to ignore laws en masse? Is it right to allow illegals to be exploited and have to live in the shadows, working for cash? Is it right to continue to allow working class Americans' wages and standard of living to erode?

I'm sorry, but I see nothing 'right' about any of that.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
29,759 posts, read 12,638,032 times
Reputation: 21078
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
It matters because what you are blaming today started over 40 years ago. But, don't that get in the way of your rant.
If you don't understand how we got here how do we change things?
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