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Old 01-11-2008, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,021 posts, read 98,892,281 times
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Isn't there an immigration forum for this kind of discussion?
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Governor's Park/Capitol Hill, Denver, CO
1,536 posts, read 5,420,039 times
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Good point Pittnurse70, I will request it be moved over there!
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,518,252 times
Reputation: 10428
I don't buy the argument that illegal immigrants "do the jobs Americans won't do". So who was doing these jobs (manual labor, crop picking, painting, construction, fast food, etc.) 20 years ago? I personally worked fast food, a car wash, lawn mowing and painting jobs as a teenager. The problem now is that illegal immigrants do these jobs for way less than Americans are willing to do them for. So companies who hire illegals are cheating Americans by stepping outside the free market. I used to charge $20 for an average lawn to mow it. If an illegal immigrant came along and offered to mow these lawns at $10, I'd have been out of a job. $20 was the going rate at the time.

If I own a company and I offer a job driving a forklift at $6 an hour and no one responds or applies, then I keep raising the rate until I get bites. Maybe I have to go up to $12 an hour (just guessing), but that's basic economics and how the free market works. But that's not what's going on. Companies are taking advantage of illegals by paying them poverty wages, just because they're willing to do it. Plus they don't have to provide health insurance (which ends up costing taxperers in the end) The eventual end result will be massive poverty and a huge lower class of people in this country, similar to Mexico.
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Governor's Park/Capitol Hill, Denver, CO
1,536 posts, read 5,420,039 times
Reputation: 1131
Much agreed Denverian. To add to that, many major U.S. companies outsource jobs to India and Asian companies that will do the job for less. Corporations are constantly trying to save a buck but hurt the middle class in the process. Again, it is on a much broader scale then low paying jobs. We as citizens need to insist on legal immigration yes, and to add to that don't support companies who hire illegals or outsource jobs to other countries.
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 22,518,252 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverAztec View Post
Much agreed Denverian. To add to that, many major U.S. companies outsource jobs to India and Asian companies that will do the job for less. Corporations are constantly trying to save a buck but hurt the middle class in the process. Again, it is on a much broader scale then low paying jobs. We as citizens need to insist on legal immigration yes, and to add to that don't support companies who hire illegals or outsource jobs to other countries.
Great point. Outsourcing is the exact same game, only the people are in another country.

I completely understand why people come here from Mexico, but I want all immigrants to be legal, tax-paying citizens with healthcare, benefits, etc. I don't know how to fix the problem though. We can't round people up and send them back to Mexico or any other country they're from - based on logistics and cost. I think some sort of amnesty and then some form of earning citizenship for those already here (without sending them home first) combined with seriously strengthening our border is probably the only reasonable solution. Whatever the solution, it won't be perfect or please everyone.
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverAztec View Post
I am a Denver native and American of Mexican decent, 4th generation native. “Colorado” is a Spanish word as half of the state was at one time Mexico. We have many illegals from all over the world here, not just Mexicans, but Russian and Ethiopian are significant in numbers as well in Denver alone. Mexicans are predominately focused on because they are right next door and all over the media but if you look Nordic or Asian, no questions are asked. Find yourself a fake ID and if you don’t look Hispanic, they you are set. There is a constant complaint about agricultural jobs being taken, what about High Tech from a less suspecting illegal? We had to let go of several individuals over the years in our IT department where I work due to falsification of applications, these were very high paying jobs that went to illegal’s without making it to FOX (Faux) News or Lou Dobb’s ranting and raving. Tom Tancredo is an idiot and of an older generation that has wrecked much of this country over they last several years. Unless you are Native American Indian, then at one time your ancestors were immigrants as well. It is a bigger issue today as our boarders are not secure and illegal means illegal. There is a process for coming to this country legally and it should be followed but we natives need to make sure that the Dobbs and Tancredos of the media and politics do not focus our complete attention on Mexicans or South Americans because they all look a certain way. Illegal immigration is happening on a much larger scale and it includes all races and nationalities. p.s. I have never heard Spanish at McDonald's, Taco Bell - yes, but not MicyD's and wow, those are some high paying jobs.

Denver does not have the crime waves from El Salvadorian gangs like MS-13 like Los Angeles does and we need to hope that this never does happen here. This is the worst type of gang possible, based on FBI and CIA reports, as these illegals have experience torture tactics first hand in their native countries. They had incorporated those tactics into their gang life style and do not care who is affected. No, they do not take high paying jobs, but rather lives. Plus, Al Qaeda has training camps in Uruguay and Paraguay, and can you tell the difference between an Arab and someone from Uruguay?

My point is that Denver has a minimal immigration problem compared to other cities and what is evident as a ‘problem’ is minor if all we talk about is low paying jobs and offering social services. Additionally, illegal immigration is not exclusive to Hispanics it is inclusive of all nationalities.
Interesting post, DenverAztec. I've only been in Colorado a few times--with its strong Hispanic roots, I was surprised that it seemed to have so little of its 'origins'...for example, when I mentioned "Salida", I was told to pronounce it "sah-LYE-dah", which seemed odd to me.

As far as your take on MS-13, you are right, that is ONE NASTY BUNCH. Are you aware of the fact that San Salvador, Santa Ana, and other large cities in El Salvador are now suffering SEVERE problems due to ruthless gang-bangers from LA ? It's true--some of these guys have been deported from Calif., OR have accompanied their parents, or are hiding out from serious charges in our court system...and they've gone home to "teach the locals" ever-more innovative ways to commit mayhem...If they're not in Denver, you're lucky.
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Aurora
357 posts, read 1,124,746 times
Reputation: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverAztec View Post
I am a Denver native and American of Mexican decent, 4th generation native. “Colorado” is a Spanish word as half of the state was at one time Mexico. We have many illegals from all over the world here, not just Mexicans, but Russian and Ethiopian are significant in numbers as well in Denver alone. Mexicans are predominately focused on because they are right next door and all over the media but if you look Nordic or Asian, no questions are asked. Find yourself a fake ID and if you don’t look Hispanic, they you are set. There is a constant complaint about agricultural jobs being taken, what about High Tech from a less suspecting illegal? We had to let go of several individuals over the years in our IT department where I work due to falsification of applications, these were very high paying jobs that went to illegal’s without making it to FOX (Faux) News or Lou Dobb’s ranting and raving. Tom Tancredo is an idiot and of an older generation that has wrecked much of this country over they last several years. Unless you are Native American Indian, then at one time your ancestors were immigrants as well. It is a bigger issue today as our boarders are not secure and illegal means illegal. There is a process for coming to this country legally and it should be followed but we natives need to make sure that the Dobbs and Tancredos of the media and politics do not focus our complete attention on Mexicans or South Americans because they all look a certain way. Illegal immigration is happening on a much larger scale and it includes all races and nationalities. p.s. I have never heard Spanish at McDonald's, Taco Bell - yes, but not MicyD's and wow, those are some high paying jobs.

Denver does not have the crime waves from El Salvadorian gangs like MS-13 like Los Angeles does and we need to hope that this never does happen here. This is the worst type of gang possible, based on FBI and CIA reports, as these illegals have experience torture tactics first hand in their native countries. They had incorporated those tactics into their gang life style and do not care who is affected. No, they do not take high paying jobs, but rather lives. Plus, Al Qaeda has training camps in Uruguay and Paraguay, and can you tell the difference between an Arab and someone from Uruguay?

My point is that Denver has a minimal immigration problem compared to other cities and what is evident as a ‘problem’ is minor if all we talk about is low paying jobs and offering social services. Additionally, illegal immigration is not exclusive to Hispanics it is inclusive of all nationalities.

amen!

let me reiterate, tancredo's a real idiot. he also advocated bombing Mecca. what a loon and a total embarrassment. I understand he used to be involved in the education system in douglas county .
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,162,145 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
I don't buy the argument that illegal immigrants "do the jobs Americans won't do". So who was doing these jobs (manual labor, crop picking, painting, construction, fast food, etc.) 20 years ago? I personally worked fast food, a car wash, lawn mowing and painting jobs as a teenager. The problem now is that illegal immigrants do these jobs for way less than Americans are willing to do them for. So companies who hire illegals are cheating Americans by stepping outside the free market. I used to charge $20 for an average lawn to mow it. If an illegal immigrant came along and offered to mow these lawns at $10, I'd have been out of a job. $20 was the going rate at the time.
If you call that cheating Americans than you'll find out that free trade is also cheating Americans. Its called Outsourcing.



Quote:
If I own a company and I offer a job driving a forklift at $6 an hour and no one responds or applies, then I keep raising the rate until I get bites. Maybe I have to go up to $12 an hour (just guessing), but that's basic economics and how the free market works. But that's not what's going on. Companies are taking advantage of illegals by paying them poverty wages, just because they're willing to do it. Plus they don't have to provide health insurance (which ends up costing taxperers in the end) The eventual end result will be massive poverty and a huge lower class of people in this country, similar to Mexico.
There has always been a lower class in American ever since the first immigrants came through ellis island.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:56 AM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,876,044 times
Reputation: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisluvThreePrinces View Post
I love Tancredo...he's one of the reasons I'm excited about our upcoming move to Denver.

I'm interested in more replies to this thread...bumping it up.
Tancredo is a hero, he is the one who first addressed this issue.
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Old 01-12-2008, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,021 posts, read 98,892,281 times
Reputation: 31456
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
There has always been a lower class in American ever since the first immigrants came through ellis island.
I think long before that, actually. Though that doesn't justify treating people unfairly. Some of these newly-arrived immigrants end up working and not getting paid at all. I have read about this in the local papers.
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