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Old 05-20-2008, 11:54 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You were justifying Mexicans breaking American laws because some of them are poor.

The USA is also a wealthy nation just as is Mexico but both countries have some poor people. The difference is, we're not insisting that our poor people must be allowed to break the laws of other countries.

Illegal immigration is doing nothing to reform Mexico, to change it's social structure and injustices but the fact is Mexico is a wealthy nation, the 12th wealthiest in the world. It can do better for it's people.

ahhh....my head.

okay, thats what I'm doing. Way to come in at mid-thread. And INSIST on changing what the discussion between me and those people was about.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
ahhh....my head.

okay, thats what I'm doing. Way to come in at mid-thread. And INSIST on changing what the discussion between me and those people was about.
Bottom line:

Us Americans are tired of those lawbreakers (illegal immigrants) being here-------it is past time for them to leave the USA.

Spin it any way that you wish, amc760------the party is over!

Here in Arizona; the differences in just one year are dramatic------it is starting to feel like the USA again, not Tijuana!
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Its called a metaphor.

I determine the wealth of a nation by the well being of its people, not by how much business its done. If a country's second largest income comes from illegal workers in the US, I don't consider it to be very rich.

And yes it matters how many people can buy shoes and tortillas. It matters a lot.

Venezuela sells a lot of oil, would you consider it rich? Chinas economy is blowing past America's, but growing middle-class notwithstanding, would you consider the people of China to be well off?

Lots of people in Mexico ARE starving, mainly in the southern states FROM WHICH most of said illegal immigrants are coming.

People ARE starving there, and thats a fact, not "subjective perspective".
I've posted regarding this issue before.

Apparently, it bears repeating.

How many huddled masses do you think this country can hold? How many tired, poor, and homeless wretched refuse are the American citizens in this country expected to support with their tax dollars at the expense of themselves and their fellow citizens who need their assistance just as much if not more than someone from another country?

Did you know that in America, more American children live below the poverty level than in any other industrialized country in the world?

If your motives are a truly altruistic as you would have the rest of us believe, if compassion is what motivates you, then I want you to explain to me what entitles Mexico's people to our compassion over the rest of the world's poor, over our own starving children? Its proximity to our southern border?

I have a real problem with those who state that this is all about human compassion, loving thy neighbor, blah diddy blah diddy blah. Today in Africa, approximately 2,500 children died. Tomorrow another 2,500 will die. The day after that another 2,500 children will die. Every day of every week of every year--children will die from starvation, from a lack of clean water, and from the diseases which are brought on by both. Why are they not deserving of a place in American society?

There is no doubt that many of Mexico's people are poor. But there is poor and then there is abject, without hope, destined to die a slow and agonizing death, poverty. If human compassion is indeed the motivation behind illegal immigration (which we all know that it is not--it is the enslavement of an entire geo-political class of people for corporate benefit) then surely there must be a yardstick by which we measure need.

Why should the United States continue to receive unchecked, all of Mexico's poor and uneducated? If poor and uneducated people are what you are looking to import into the United States in the name of human compassion, then I suggest that we begin importing our illegal aliens from the following fifty poorest countries in the world. Please note that Mexico doesn't even make the top 50:

Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia.

If human compassion is your motivation, then people from these fifty countries should be priority. I guarantee that they will be much more grateful for the opportunity to "improve" their lives than our current crop of illegals aliens, and I'm sure that they will be just as easy to exploit for slave wages as Mexico's people are, so no loss to big business either.

Mexico is a country rich in resources, unlike the majority of countries named above. Its people need to grow a set and demand that their government become accountable to the people and that opportunties for Mexico's people are provided for them in Mexico.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:36 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Wonderful and insightful post Kele ----- too bad amc760 will not address it
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:29 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Wonderful and insightful post Kele ----- too bad amc760 will not address it
Ive addressed the fact that Mexico does have wealth. But it isn't distributed fairly, and a lot of people have it a pretty rough..worst than anyone in the United States will ever experience.

Its easy to sit at home and say, oh, they don't have it that bad...look at (insert war torn country here). But its bad enough for them to risk their lives to come here. Many have it far worse than any of you will ever experience personally.


I was trying to desribe a situation without actually getting into the politics of illegal immigration for a second, but I guess its too abstract an idea.

Its like if someone mentions the words Mexico and poverty, you guys cover your ears, close your eyes and just yell "NOT IN MY BACKYARD! NOT IN MY BACKYARD!"

It shouldn't even be an argument of what people are going through in the country right next to us. You refuse to acknowledge that there are people living in communities with extremely low literacy rates, no electricity or running water, high disease rates, and malnutrition in the country that borders us!

No one is trying to say its "your problem"! The discussion is whether or not there IS a problem. I apologize if its too hard to comprehend any problems in Mexico that arent affecting you. So many people are so convinced that they are biggest victims of this whole thing, the ones who are worst off because they are inconvenienced with having to press 1 on the phone, its sickening.
Your disgust with immigrants is so strong, you'd rather ignore the fact there is a problem they are facing, and you'd rather trivialize what many people are going through to further justify having animosity towards them.

Again, in case you didn't comprehend, NO ONE IS SAYING ITS YOUR PROBLEM. THE POINT IS THERE IS A PROBLEM AND WHILE ILLEGAL, SOME PEOPLE ARE FLEEING A LEGITIMATELY BAD SITUATION.

There not leaving becase theyre not getting a stimulus check they can get in the US, theyre not leaving just to spite you guys and take over the country, theyre not leaving because they have a better chance of getting a promotion in their career, they ARE leaving because they have little hope of living a good life in Mexico.

Last edited by amc760; 05-21-2008 at 10:38 AM..
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:11 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,048 posts, read 21,158,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Ive addressed the fact that Mexico does have wealth. But it isn't distributed fairly, and a lot of people have it a pretty rough..worst than anyone in the United States will ever experience.

Its easy to sit at home and say, oh, they don't have it that bad...look at (insert war torn country here). But its bad enough for them to risk their lives to come here. Many have it far worse than any of you will ever experience personally.


I was trying to desribe a situation without actually getting into the politics of illegal immigration for a second, but I guess its too abstract an idea.

Its like if someone mentions the words Mexico and poverty, you guys cover your ears, close your eyes and just yell "NOT IN MY BACKYARD! NOT IN MY BACKYARD!"

It shouldn't even be an argument of what people are going through in the country right next to us. You refuse to acknowledge that there are people living in communities with extremely low literacy rates, no electricity or running water, high disease rates, and malnutrition in the country that borders us!

No one is trying to say its "your problem"! The discussion is whether or not there IS a problem. I apologize if its too hard to comprehend any problems in Mexico that arent affecting you. So many people are so convinced that they are biggest victims of this whole thing, the ones who are worst off because they are inconvenienced with having to press 1 on the phone, its sickening.
Your disgust with immigrants is so strong, you'd rather ignore the fact there is a problem they are facing, and you'd rather trivialize what many people are going through to further justify having animosity towards them.

Again, in case you didn't comprehend, NO ONE IS SAYING ITS YOUR PROBLEM. THE POINT IS THERE IS A PROBLEM AND WHILE ILLEGAL, SOME PEOPLE ARE FLEEING A LEGITIMATELY BAD SITUATION.

There not leaving becase theyre not getting a stimulus check they can get in the US, theyre not leaving just to spite you guys and take over the country, theyre not leaving because they have a better chance of getting a promotion in their career, they ARE leaving because they have little hope of living a good life in Mexico.
I wonder how many would come, if they knew in advance that they would not be able to sponge off of our medical, education, and social services for free. No subsidies from US taxpayers would solve much of the illegal immigration problem, IMHO. It would help separate the chaff from the grain.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010
Personally, my belief is that we in this country have enough Americans living below the poverty level who should be first in line for any assistance that the U.S. has to give without having to compete with people in this country illegally for whatever resources are available.

Mexico has a very affluent upper class society. They need to be the ones taking care of their poor instead of fousting them off on the already overburdened American taxpayer.

The official poverty threshold is adjusted for inflation using the consumer price index. Poverty in the United States is cyclical in nature with roughly 12% to 15% living below the federal poverty line at any given point in time, and roughly 40% falling below the poverty line at some time within a 10 year time span. While there remains some controversy of whether or not the official poverty threshold over or understates poverty, the United States has some of the highest absolute and relative pre-transfer, and the highest post-transfer, poverty rates in the developed world. Overall the U.S. ranks 16th on the Human Poverty Index worldwide.

Those under the age of 18 were the most likely to be impoverished. In 2001 the poverty rate for minors in the United States was the highest in the industrialized world, with 14.8% of all minors and 30% of African American minors living below the poverty threshold. Moreover, the standard of living for those in the bottom 10% was lower in the U.S. than in any other developed nation except the United Kingdom, which had the lowest standard of living for impoverished children. In 2006, poverty rate for minors in the United States was 21.9% - the highest child poverty rate in the developed world.

The "absolute poverty line" is defined as the threshold below which families or individuals are considered to be lacking the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living; having insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health.

My point, which amc760 has still not yet addressed, is that our own American children--one-fifth of America's children--go to bed hungry every night. One fifth.

Over two thousand, five hundred children die every day of every week of every year in Africa. This compassion that you seem wont to extend to Mexico's poor doesn't seem to overflow to our own destitute or to the 6,387,500 children dying in Africa every year--only to the poor living south of the U.S./Mexican border.

How is it that you are able to rationalize the illegal behavior of illegal aliens in coming to this country to relieve their poverty while completely disregarding the rest of the world's poor? The poverty level of Mexico's people doesn't even break the top 50 countries in the world.

If you are indeed motivated by a compassion for the poor rather than a sympathy for Mexico's illegals alone, why are you not fighting for the right of the truly poverty stricken countries of the world to import their starving masses into the U.S.?
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:55 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Personally, my belief is that we in this country have enough Americans living below the poverty level who should be first in line for any assistance that the U.S. has to give without having to compete with people in this country illegally for whatever resources are available.

Mexico has a very affluent upper class society. They need to be the ones taking care of their poor instead of fousting them off on the already overburdened American taxpayer.

The official poverty threshold is adjusted for inflation using the consumer price index. Poverty in the United States is cyclical in nature with roughly 12% to 15% living below the federal poverty line at any given point in time, and roughly 40% falling below the poverty line at some time within a 10 year time span. While there remains some controversy of whether or not the official poverty threshold over or understates poverty, the United States has some of the highest absolute and relative pre-transfer, and the highest post-transfer, poverty rates in the developed world. Overall the U.S. ranks 16th on the Human Poverty Index worldwide.

Those under the age of 18 were the most likely to be impoverished. In 2001 the poverty rate for minors in the United States was the highest in the industrialized world, with 14.8% of all minors and 30% of African American minors living below the poverty threshold. Moreover, the standard of living for those in the bottom 10% was lower in the U.S. than in any other developed nation except the United Kingdom, which had the lowest standard of living for impoverished children. In 2006, poverty rate for minors in the United States was 21.9% - the highest child poverty rate in the developed world.

The "absolute poverty line" is defined as the threshold below which families or individuals are considered to be lacking the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living; having insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health.

My point, which amc760 has still not yet addressed, is that our own American children--one-fifth of America's children--go to bed hungry every night. One fifth.

Over two thousand, five hundred children die every day of every week of every year in Africa. This compassion that you seem wont to extend to Mexico's poor doesn't seem to overflow to our own destitute or to the 6,387,500 children dying in Africa every year--only to the poor living south of the U.S./Mexican border.

How is it that you are able to rationalize the illegal behavior of illegal aliens in coming to this country to relieve their poverty while completely disregarding the rest of the world's poor? The poverty level of Mexico's people doesn't even break the top 50 countries in the world.

If you are indeed motivated by a compassion for the poor rather than a sympathy for Mexico's illegals alone, why are you not fighting for the right of the truly poverty stricken countries of the world to import their starving masses into the U.S.?
who says I wouldn't? are you assuming that because im talking about mexican immigrants on a forum where 95 percent of the discussion is about mexican immigrants that thats the only group I care about? Get real.


The difference is, Mexico is walking distance from the United States.

And as fast as you'd accuse me of only caring about Mexico's poor(this forum is mostly about MEXICAN immigration!), I'd accuse for not caring about Mexico's poor at all, just because theirs countries with higher numbers of poor people. It must be nice to pick who you care about and who you don't.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
who says I wouldn't? are you assuming that because im talking about mexican immigrants on a forum where 95 percent of the discussion is about mexican immigrants that thats the only group I care about? Get real.

The difference is, Mexico is walking distance from the United States.

And as fast as you'd accuse me of only caring about Mexico's poor(this forum is mostly about MEXICAN immigration!), I'd accuse for not caring about Mexico's poor at all, just because theirs countries with higher numbers of poor people. It must be nice to pick who you care about and who you don't.
I am assuming nothing. The only information I can glean would be from your past posts, where you expound enthusiastically in support of Mexico's poor being allowed access to the fruits of the U.S. taxpayer's dollars while conveniently ignoring the fact that the U.S. compartmentalizes and neglects its own poverty stricken in favor of assisting those in this country illegally as well as the fact that Mexico's poor are much better off than 90% of those poverty stricken OTM's throughout the world.

Canada is within walking distance of the U.S.--are you in favor of having all of their poor dumped off within our borders as well simply because of the border proximity? Or are you confident in Canada's ability to care for their own?

What makes you think that I pick and choose who I care about? What do you know about me that allows you to suppose that I am uncaring about Mexico's poor?

I support a variety of charities helping to alleviate hunger. Feed the Children right here in the U.S. receives a monthly contribution from me, as well as the Christian Children's Fund through which I sponsor a child in Uganda and a child in Mexico. I do this on a student's budget. You seem to be talking a good talk about Mexico's poor. What are you doing to assist them to stay in their own country while working to bring about change?
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:39 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,018,519 times
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amc, your dream is coming true, although not this year. My husband and I, American citizens, eventually will be forced to move from our home of over fifty years, Los Angeles, specifically because the rising costs here to subsidize illegals from Mexico. This is your Brave New World utopia, where working poor Americans are forced to move or else suffer to pay for Mexicans who broke the law of the U.S. to live here and get free services forever. Don't rhapsodize about costs elsewhere, I'm specifically writing about Los Angeles, illegals capital of the U.S. They come here to work the system, not work. You'd love it, since you have no sympathy for Americans.
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