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Old 05-22-2008, 02:08 AM
 
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Recently, I took a course on the American Southwest since I am a history major. We talked for a while about Mexico and immigration just prior to the U.S.-Mexico war of 1846 (aka Mexican-American war, or war of Invasion-in Mexico). Basically, Mexico was looking to populate its northern possessions, namely Coahuila y Tejas (which split later into two states, Texas and Coahuila), but to a lesser extent New Mexico and California as well. They even paid land agents, known as empresarios, to help bring in new families. (Stephen Austin was famous for this.) Many white Americans took advantage of this opportunity and moved in.

Even though slavery was illegal in Mexico, by decree of Afro-Mexican president Vicente Guerrero, illegal southern American immigrants brought enslaved Africans with them. Spanish soon disappeared as the dominant tongue in many places, and poll taxes and English literacy tests were given to limit the political control of Tejanos or Hispanic Texans. By the time Mexico finally strengthened some of its immigration laws, illegal whites and enslaved blacks had already become the majority in certain areas.

I bring this up because I always hear some people saying that if Americans went to Mexico, and started speaking English only and this and that, Mexicans wouldn't like it But that already did happen. I am just curious how up to date with history people are. This info. is not intended to legitimize what is going today with immigration since there are some legitimate concerns surrounding it, but rather it is a little food for thought.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Beaumont, Texas
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denverbeast- Actualy this is a strong arguement against illegal-immigration. It shows what happens when a country lets too many undocumented people in.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyblackjohn View Post
denverbeast- Actualy this is a strong arguement against illegal-immigration. It shows what happens when a country lets too many undocumented people in.
Very well stated.

And all the more reason to make like here a living hell for illegal immigrants and their enablers to force 'em out------within the confines of the law.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:17 AM
 
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I think history does serve as a warning for the future.....
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:46 AM
 
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Actually, Mexico had quite an experience with illegal gringo invaders in the person of William Walker. A real 'wacko' in many ways, Walker (among other things) invaded La Paz B.C., in the attempt to become 'ruler' of Baja. He then went on to invade Sonora, with the idea of 'taking over' with his army and probably 'cutting a deal' with the US. (this was shortly before the US Civil War, I believe). Misguided as his 'shenanigans' were, they DID play a part in the US purchase of a small part of Sonora, the "Gadsden Purchase" (the southermost slice of present-day Arizona).

He was 'repulsed' by the Mexican authorities, and retreated to California, where, as I recall, he was prosecuted for violating US Neutrality laws. He later went on to further 'adventures' in an attempt to conquer Nicaragua (where he is a well-known 'villian' in their history).

The point, though, is that he failed....and that he was generally regarded as 'the bad guy' both in Mexico, Nicaragua, AND the US. I don't think he had ANY public support anywhere.

A little-known 'blip' in history, but you can 'google' him, if you're interested in such trivia.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:15 PM
 
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thanks for the responses so far. i definitely understand why someone else might see this to some degree as an anti-illegal immigration argument. that wasn't my point but i'm saying that we can't suffer from historical amnesia and forget that only so many years ago it was the Americans that were the "aliens" who refused to accept the dominant language and customs. I've read some posters saying that new immigrants were making them the "minority" as though they were entitled to be the majority in the first place.

Few us had ancestors in this hemisphere prior to the last 500 years, with the exception of American Indians. We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. In my case, my ancestors were enslaved and came here unwillingly while many others came for opportunity. My overall point is that to some extent what's happening today happened before, only it was the U.S. but how often do we acknowledge that? Rather than escalating it to another Mexican-American war, let's remember our history and find some common goals so we can secure our borders and enforce laws while also allowing the American legacy of immigration to continue.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:17 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denverbeast View Post
thanks for the responses so far. i definitely understand why someone else might see this to some degree as an anti-illegal immigration argument. that wasn't my point but i'm saying that we can't suffer from historical amnesia and forget that only so many years ago it was the Americans that were the "aliens" who refused to accept the dominant language and customs. I've read some posters saying that new immigrants were making them the "minority" as though they were entitled to be the majority in the first place.

Few us had ancestors in this hemisphere prior to the last 500 years, with the exception of American Indians. We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. In my case, my ancestors were enslaved and came here unwillingly while many others came for opportunity. My overall point is that to some extent what's happening today happened before, only it was the U.S. but how often do we acknowledge that? Rather than escalating it to another Mexican-American war, let's remember our history and find some common goals so we can secure our borders and enforce laws while also allowing the American legacy of immigration to continue.
Good points. My ancestors, too immigrated here, in a different time of history. My wife's ancestors, for the most part, did NOT. As your post allows, hers are some of the few people who really WERE here first....like by several thousand years. They were ALSO in California when the Spaniards came in, they were here when the Mexicans revolted against Spain. Less than 3 decades later, a bunch of "newcomers" revolted against Mexico, held the place for a time, and then it was "annexed" by the US.

My "in-laws" have lived within a few miles of the SAME SPOT through all of this. But you won't hear most of them "grumbling" about any invasion. Most of them have a remarkably humorous and pragmatic view of things, with very few illusions. Rough, tough, unfair and cruel though life may have been, most of these folks are FAR better off than their ancestors ever were, and they KNOW it, and they've said so numerous times. I've learned a lot about 'positive attitudes' just by listening..it's truly amazing how they've 'made lemonade out of lemons'.

The whole point is, the dead are dead, both the 'good ones' and the 'bad'. We are here today, the living. WE can't make up for the past, except by trying to live honorably today. The US is a noble 'experiment', and we'd be foolish to 'toss it aside'. Trying to 'make up for the past' by doing silly and destructive things today isn't a good plan.

The point is, IF the US is an honorable and decent place, it's worth preserving. And the whole 'concept' uopn which the US is founded, is the LAW. That's the only thing holding us together as a nation. We're FAR too varied and diverse to agree on much else, and without our system of laws, we'd be nothing. And illegal immigration is an assault upon our laws. It puts many of US, and our leaders, in a position of violating the law, day after day.

If we don't "like" our laws, we're supposed to CHANGE them, not violate them. If America, as a society, wants illegals to be made LEGAL, they'll see that this is done, under the law. So far, though, they're NOT. Illegal immigration, as it stands today, is grossly unfair to the American worker, it's CERTAINLY unfair to LEGAL immigrants, and even the ILLEGALS aren't happy with it. They work "hard, long, and cheap", but still they want to be made LEGAL...presumably, so they won't have to work so hard...or so long...or so cheap. THEN what happens? Will they just be tossed aside for MORE illegals? Any economic system that TRULY is dependent on illegal labor isn't a very healthy system. I don't think we're REALLY so dependent..we've just convinced ourselves that it's 'inevitable'. It doesn't have to be. Remember that at one time, it was taken as absolute FACT that the economy of the American South would be "totally unable to operate" without slaves. Needless to say, the 'slaves' were taken away, and their 'bosses' had to learn to 'do without'. Some day, perhaps America can learn to 'do without' people held in a sort of 'bondage', (a.k.a, illegals). If it's a job worth 'having done', then it should be a job worth paying 'legal wages' for....
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The whole point is, the dead are dead, both the 'good ones' and the 'bad'. We are here today, the living. WE can't make up for the past, except by trying to live honorably today. The US is a noble 'experiment', and we'd be foolish to 'toss it aside'. Trying to 'make up for the past' by doing silly and destructive things today isn't a good plan.

The point is, IF the US is an honorable and decent place, it's worth preserving. And the whole 'concept' uopn which the US is founded, is the LAW. That's the only thing holding us together as a nation. We're FAR too varied and diverse to agree on much else, and without our system of laws, we'd be nothing. And illegal immigration is an assault upon our laws. It puts many of US, and our leaders, in a position of violating the law, day after day.

If we don't "like" our laws, we're supposed to CHANGE them, not violate them. If America, as a society, wants illegals to be made LEGAL, they'll see that this is done, under the law. So far, though, they're NOT. Illegal immigration, as it stands today, is grossly unfair to the American worker, it's CERTAINLY unfair to LEGAL immigrants, and even the ILLEGALS aren't happy with it. They work "hard, long, and cheap", but still they want to be made LEGAL...presumably, so they won't have to work so hard...or so long...or so cheap. THEN what happens? Will they just be tossed aside for MORE illegals? Any economic system that TRULY is dependent on illegal labor isn't a very healthy system. I don't think we're REALLY so dependent..we've just convinced ourselves that it's 'inevitable'. It doesn't have to be.
Very well-stated! I simply don't understand why this concept is so difficult to comprehend. We are living in the year 2008! Many seem to want to dwell in the past, and justify behavior on the basis of prior century mandates.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:16 PM
 
16,700 posts, read 18,909,509 times
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I guess they learned something from us... now they are doing what we did to them... hahaha... the irony... and our federal government letting them do it... the pandering! Its time states took their rightful power to fight the insidious onslaught of attacks on our polticial system... they attacked from the inside out... their motives? Money...
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,917,927 times
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As others have stated, history is there to remind us of past wrongdoings, and two wrongs do not make one right.
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