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Old 05-22-2008, 07:22 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,039,458 times
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I would like someone to explain to me why is it that the US has a moral obligation to take anybody and everybody who would like to enter -- legally or illegally without a screening process? Other nations enforce their immigration laws, yet somehow the US is presented as racist or uncaring if we did.........

I would also like to have an open borders supporter detail where the money to support said illegals will come from. Please bear in mind that bringing the troops home from Iraq will not actually put more money into circulation, rather it is just less money we end up borrowing from the Chinese.

Thank you!
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:12 AM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,176,863 times
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We don't have a obligation-moral or otherwise to take anyone. First of all no one has a right to come here-legally or illegally. Legal immigration should be if we as a country need to have immigrants come here to benefit our country because of a labor shortage. That being said- there is no labor shortage just cheap companies. However if we do opt for legal immigrants to come here-in my opinion-they should be put through the strictest of screenings-health, background checks, able to support themselves and if not they leave-no public assistance.


The USA is by far the most generous country on the planet when it comes to legal immigration. That is before the 20-30+ illegals that are here and continue to come every day.

Nicolem
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:04 AM
 
3,698 posts, read 9,990,148 times
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We don't have an obligation to take everyone, and we don't.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:25 AM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,064 posts, read 15,478,889 times
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Definitely not obligated, but if you want to play "World Savior" then why not lead by example in your own yard and with your own neighbors? Anyway that is something I never understood about America, we push our lifestyle on other countries, but we cannot even keep our own house under order...I digress.

The problem is that for decades OUR own country has allowed these people in, give them jobs, food, housing, schooling for their children. It was never a problem like it is today. Then we get a bad president, multiple wars, housing slump, and we decide to turn and blame those illegal immigrants.

So no, we are not obligated by law, but "we as a country" did allow them to setup life here, so aren't we all at fault and somewhat morally obligated?
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:30 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,051 posts, read 21,178,051 times
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As far as I'm concerned, I am not exactly worried about who's fault it is - I am all about solutions. Half the time in the immigration forum, there are those that would deny that the problem even exists. I would prefer less time with scapegoating and obfuscating, and more time fixing the problem. Seal the border, and crack down on employers. No more subsidizing illegals. Self-deportation would ensue.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:42 AM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,064 posts, read 15,478,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
As far as I'm concerned, I am not exactly worried about who's fault it is - I am all about solutions. Half the time in the immigration forum, there are those that would deny that the problem even exists. I would prefer less time with scapegoating and obfuscating, and more time fixing the problem. Seal the border, and crack down on employers. No more subsidizing illegals. Self-deportation would ensue.
Job shutdown and self deportation is the best way IMO, let them leave on their accord, if you stop the jobs they will leave.

Stop wasting money on raids, spend that money for raiding illegal drug dealers and smugglers.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:06 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
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The US has such a "moral obligation" because it is one of those very few nations, nominally based on a Protestant Christian "foundation", which is quite rare in the world. The US was the first society founded to pretty much offer refuge to EVERYBODY. It was probably a very GOOD ideal, but also probably pretty naive...it assumed that ANYONE, from ANYWHERE, could come here, and ON THEIR OWN, would just elect to somehow "fit in", without being forced to by law. So 'stuffy' were these early founding fathers, that they specifically included passages in the Constitution limiting THEIR power, in favor of 'others'. That's right...the founding "protestants" specifically went to great lengths to make sure all OTHER groups shared their rights. VERY FEW societies have ever done this, and America was the first. It was a truly "new" way of looking at things.

For decades, we DID 'force' assimilation, not by law, but by peer pressure and 'custom', and it more-or-less worked. Now, that peer pressure is gone. We no longer 'ask' anything of newcomers, yet we still ASSUME they'll 'get on board'. Some do, while others see no need to...some don't even see the need to be citizens. And lots of us agree..."no big thing", so to speak. You couldn't run a business this way, or a club, or a university, or anything. But somehow, we feel you can run a "country" by just having people show up. No rules, no requirements, no duties....just show up. Probably a pretty naive way of looking at things....but that's how we do it.

The fact is that the US, and a VERY few other nations, have the unique quality built into their culture that makes them susceptible to a sort of "societal guilt". In this country, we acknowledge all the "bad" we've ever done, now or in the past...whether or NOT it had anything to do with us personally. We willngly and politely listen as OTHER cultures add THEIR complaints against us, and we acknowledge those, too. Sometimes we even accept the blame for "making" THEM do bad things to each other.

Every society on earth has committed gross acts of inhumanity, racism, and violence upon "others", or even upon its OWN people. Many of these "crimes" of the past (or even of the PRESENT) make America's 'sins' pale in comparison. What is the "difference", then? The difference is that MOST nations and cultures simply don't CARE what you, or I, or anyone else, thinks about them. They suffer no guilt, and if anyone is so misguided as to think he can 'criticize' them, his efforts simply fall on deaf ears. In short, THAT is why the US has the "moral obligation" to straighten out the troubles of the world... because it WILL....because its guilt can be played upon....because if it hesitates, it will be called "xenophobic, racist, selfish, cruel, uncaring" and a dozen other things.

Critcizing the US is available to anyone....and the US will almost ALWAYS listen, feel 'bad;, and probably respond. Why don't we criticize Russia...or China...or Mexico...or the Arab nations....or Pakistan....or Germany...or Japan? Is it because they're morally 'above' criticism? Not at all. It's because, if we criticized them, we'd get no reaction. They wouldn't care. When WE are criticized, we listen. THAT'S the root of our 'moral obligation' to help others, whether they 'like' us or not.

Last edited by macmeal; 05-22-2008 at 10:16 AM..
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:16 AM
 
2,260 posts, read 3,303,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I would like someone to explain to me why is it that the US has a moral obligation to take anybody and everybody who would like to enter -- legally or illegally without a screening process? Other nations enforce their immigration laws, yet somehow the US is presented as racist or uncaring if we did.........

I would also like to have an open borders supporter detail where the money to support said illegals will come from. Please bear in mind that bringing the troops home from Iraq will not actually put more money into circulation, rather it is just less money we end up borrowing from the Chinese.

Thank you!
It's all about power. The party that gives all the illegal aliens citizenship is the party that gains millions of voters.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:28 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
The problem is that for decades OUR own country has allowed these people in, give them jobs, food, housing, schooling for their children. It was never a problem like it is today. Then we get a bad president, multiple wars, housing slump, and we decide to turn and blame those illegal immigrants.
?
This statement is true..yet, it could ALSO be said that "For decades, our country has allowed these people in, given them jobs, food housing, and schooling, and it was never a problem. Has this produced any appreciation or gratitude? If it has, it's mostly drowned out by the anger, resentment, and frustrated sense of entitlement of the "new" illegals. These folks will hear NO suggestion that maybe 'enough is enough'. Any mention of 'slowing things down' causes INSTANT complaints".

THAT statement is ALSO true....
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:36 AM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,064 posts, read 15,478,889 times
Reputation: 5288
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This statement is true..yet, it could ALSO be said that "For decades, our country has allowed these people in, given them jobs, food housing, and schooling, and it was never a problem. Has this produced any appreciation or gratitude? If it has, it's mostly drowned out by the anger, resentment, and frustrated sense of entitlement of the "new" illegals. These folks will hear NO suggestion that maybe 'enough is enough'. Any mention of 'slowing things down' causes INSTANT complaints".

THAT statement is ALSO true....
True, but have we ever showed them any gratitude for their hard work? Almost all housing in SouthWest has had an illegal hand on it, all food, everything...todos. I guess we as American citizens don't have to show them gratitude because they are here illegally, it is like we allow them to exist here but don't go expecting us to say hello or hola to them when they are mowing lawns.

They are just people too, they also feel anger, resentment, and frustration.

I don't know I think we all could be a little more respectful, but nobody is obligated to be.
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