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Old 05-23-2008, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
1,744 posts, read 6,491,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

As I recall, some locals benefitted and some were employed, though few were interested in "line jobs" in the slaughterhouse itself. .

I don't blame them... The video the OP said that the jobs used to pay $20 and now they're paying their legal employees $8 and according to some reports, $5 or $6 for some illegal employees. Americans shouldn't have to do that kind of work for $8 an hour, especially since they used to make $20 doing it.

I'm glad to see the illegals deported, but I would be great to see the Lubavitchers behind bars.


In the book, Bloom did end up becoming sympathetic towards the locals (he went in with a slight bias towards the Lubavitchers) and I believe he caught a lot of flak from the Jewish community for "airing their dirty laundry" after putting out the book.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:02 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,285,808 times
Reputation: 1675
Deportation is extremely costly (I have read that it costs approximately $7,000-8,000 to deport a person) and has costly economic and social effects on communities when there are mass deportations. Although I am normally a person who believes that the law is made to be followed and not to be broken, I have to abandon this idea when speaking of illegal immigration because I think it is MORE costly to enforce our rigid immigration laws than to just not enforce in many cases. I just have to say that I don't care about a person's illegal status if they and their children are contributing to the community. It seems like some of you favor principle over practicality.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:27 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,627,052 times
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Interesting that NOBODY on this thread has made the SLIGHTEST suggestion that this might be an example of "anti-Semitism"....remarkable (at least, I never saw such an alegation). Some day, this SAME story may also be seen NOT to be "anti-" anybody, except "anti-the presence of illegal workers".
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,827,658 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Deportation is extremely costly (I have read that it costs approximately $7,000-8,000 to deport a person) and has costly economic and social effects on communities when there are mass deportations. Although I am normally a person who believes that the law is made to be followed and not to be broken, I have to abandon this idea when speaking of illegal immigration because I think it is MORE costly to enforce our rigid immigration laws than to just not enforce in many cases. I just have to say that I don't care about a person's illegal status if they and their children are contributing to the community.
Then, you also don’t “care” about identity theft. How do you think illegal aliens manage to obtain work in this country? They certainly do not have “legal” documents required for employment. Perhaps if your identity is stolen you may change your stance.

Quote:
It seems like some of you favor principle over practicality.
No, I favor principle over criminality.

The following links contains two of thousands of victims of illegal alien identity theft. This is hardly a victimless crime, as evidenced by the nightmares these "victims" endured due to having their identities stolen. Perhaps you can muster a little compassion for them.

Identity Theft by Illegal Immigrants a Growing Problem Locally | WSBT South Bend - Your Local News Leader | Local News (http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/11031761.html - broken link)

Illegal immigrants turn to identity theft - Security - MSNBC.com
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,654,941 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Deportation is extremely costly (I have read that it costs approximately $7,000-8,000 to deport a person) and has costly economic and social effects on communities when there are mass deportations. Although I am normally a person who believes that the law is made to be followed and not to be broken, I have to abandon this idea when speaking of illegal immigration because I think it is MORE costly to enforce our rigid immigration laws than to just not enforce in many cases. I just have to say that I don't care about a person's illegal status if they and their children are contributing to the community. It seems like some of you favor principle over practicality.
Laws like Oklahoma's tend to work quite well in forcing illegal immigrants to self deport.

Basically; it is against the law in that state to either hire an illegal or even to rent a domicile to the above.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:43 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,285,808 times
Reputation: 1675
I never said that I don't care about identity theft. My solution to the problem is making it much, much easier to immigrate to this country legally in the first place; if it weren't so hard, maybe some illegal immigrants wouldn't have to turn to identity theft to falsify documents in order to obtain work. I also am against Oklahoma-style laws that make it illegal to hire or rent to an illegal immigrant. I agree with some restrictions on hiring illegal immigrants (but no BAN) and completely DISAGREE with laws banning the renting of apartments to illegal immigrants. A homeowner should be allowed to rent his dwelling to whomever he pleases, including to illegal immigrants. Where are these people supposed to live? Where are they supposed to work? Generally, illegal immigrants do NOT collect benefits like welfare; if you deny them the opportunity to work and to rent their own dwellings, they WILL start to turn to the government for "handouts," and that is a move of which I KNOW some of you people will disapprove.

Many of you say that there is a problem with illegal immigration. That's fine, I'll accept that, and I actually agree that this is a problem. However, I don't think immigration is the problem, I think the fact that many of these immigrants must come ILLEGALLY (because it is incredibly difficult, time consuming, and costly to come legally) is the problem. Solution? Make it easier to immigrate legally. If a test is so hard that it fails most everyone (and yet the people failing the test seem to be doing well in school), make the test easier. If illegal immigration laws are so hard that they prevent millions of immigrants from coming legally (but yet they are doing well for themselves in this country), make the immigration process easier. Problem solved.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:23 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,627,052 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Many of you say that there is a problem with illegal immigration. That's fine, I'll accept that, and I actually agree that this is a problem. However, I don't think immigration is the problem, I think the fact that many of these immigrants must come ILLEGALLY (because it is incredibly difficult, time consuming, and costly to come legally) is the problem. Solution? Make it easier to immigrate legally. If a test is so hard that it fails most everyone (and yet the people failing the test seem to be doing well in school), make the test easier. If illegal immigration laws are so hard that they prevent millions of immigrants from coming legally (but yet they are doing well for themselves in this country), make the immigration process easier. Problem solved.
There's a certain logic in what you say....however, illegal immigration doesn't occur in a vacuum. Making legal immigration easier, as you suggest, would probably boost the numbers of legal immigrants.

But THEN what? Obviously, these new LEGAL immigrants are going to want to be compensated, treated, and respected as if they were LEGAL..(which, at that point, is what they'd be). In fact, they might want to be treated just as the local Americans are treated. Very soon, unscrupulous and cost-cutting employers might lose interest in them. Remember, these employers INSIST that they "need" illegals in order to stay in business.....presumably, that's equivalent to saying "we can't AFFORD to pay legal American wages, or give legal American benefits"..so THEN what happens? Don't these new 'legal" people soon lose their jobs to more, even newer, ILLEGAL people, and the cycle repeats? (except that, NOW, we've got even MORE angry displaced workers than we did before ?).

What makes anyone think that an employer determined to staff his operation with illegal workers, is suddenly going to want to begin using LEGAL ones? Isn't his inability to keep LEGAL workers, the very thing that caused him to hire the ILLEGALS in the FIRST place? At least, that was my understanding...

On the other hand, if you're suggesting a two (or three)-pronged approach that INCLUDES sanctioning and penalizing the EMPLOYERS, why not do that NOW? That way, we don't have to make the VERY controversial and ill-conceived move of providing yet ANOTHER blanket amnesty, thus demonstrating once more that "crime DOES pay"....we're STILL being 'beaten over the head' for the PREVIOUS amnesties we've already granted...these seem to have generated at LEAST as much resentment as they have 'thanks".

We don't even NEED to get into the massive outpouring of anger that would be generated among legal workers, who have seen their wages undercut, and lost their benefits, in favor of illegals, at such time as these illegals are ever rewarded by amnesty..that's a whole different LEVEL of irony..
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:31 PM
 
220 posts, read 336,355 times
Reputation: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444;
Everyone should watch "The Latinos of Postville" video. It speaks a lot to how many small towns in the South (and in Postville's case, the Midwest) need Latin American immigrants to keep towns alive and stimulate the economy.
...
What are you, some kind of "the business of America is business" 80s capitalist?

The health of the nation should always be our primary concern. The modern American economy has fundamentally changed with rural communities economically reeling for important structural reasons, for one thing our nation's economy is no longer exclusively agrarian. Sober reasoning suggests that we shouldn't economically revive certain rural communities with illegal third world immigration just for the sake of turning over a profit for some corporation.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:32 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,043,932 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I never said that I don't care about identity theft. My solution to the problem is making it much, much easier to immigrate to this country legally in the first place; if it weren't so hard, maybe some illegal immigrants wouldn't have to turn to identity theft to falsify documents in order to obtain work. I also am against Oklahoma-style laws that make it illegal to hire or rent to an illegal immigrant. I agree with some restrictions on hiring illegal immigrants (but no BAN) and completely DISAGREE with laws banning the renting of apartments to illegal immigrants. A homeowner should be allowed to rent his dwelling to whomever he pleases, including to illegal immigrants. Where are these people supposed to live? Where are they supposed to work? Generally, illegal immigrants do NOT collect benefits like welfare; if you deny them the opportunity to work and to rent their own dwellings, they WILL start to turn to the government for "handouts," and that is a move of which I KNOW some of you people will disapprove.

Many of you say that there is a problem with illegal immigration. That's fine, I'll accept that, and I actually agree that this is a problem. However, I don't think immigration is the problem, I think the fact that many of these immigrants must come ILLEGALLY (because it is incredibly difficult, time consuming, and costly to come legally) is the problem. Solution? Make it easier to immigrate legally. If a test is so hard that it fails most everyone (and yet the people failing the test seem to be doing well in school), make the test easier. If illegal immigration laws are so hard that they prevent millions of immigrants from coming legally (but yet they are doing well for themselves in this country), make the immigration process easier. Problem solved.
Are you serious? If a test is too hard for the students to pass, your answer is to dumb it down? You are concerned about where illegals were to live and work if the laws of this land are enforced? Let me guess....are you a product of the 'no child left behind' educational system?

Perhaps illegals can live and work in their countries of origin. Because you see, the US can no longer afford (and I do mean that in every sense of the word) the conceit of letting in the flotsam of all other nations. We cannot do it. The money is gone. Illegals that come here and undercut the salaries of US workers are not doing our country a favor. At all. In fact, about one hundred years ago there was a term for people who did that ---- scabs. Furthermore, identity theft is a huge problem. Would you like an illegal to take down your ssn and name and ruin your credit history? How about break the law (besides the whole sneaking into the country thing) and skip bail --- guess whose name would be on that warrant? Not the illegals.
Finally, why do you suppose other sovereign nations have immigration laws that they uphold? What do you think happens to the North Koreans who attempt to sneak into China? How about those that illegally stay in any of the EU countries after their visa expires? They get deported. Why is it so hard for some to accept that the US has the same right and duty to uphold our immigration laws??

Last edited by camping!; 05-23-2008 at 03:34 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:36 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,043,932 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
There's a certain logic in what you say....however, illegal immigration doesn't occur in a vacuum. Making legal immigration easier, as you suggest, would probably boost the numbers of legal immigrants.

But THEN what? Obviously, these new LEGAL immigrants are going to want to be compensated, treated, and respected as if they were LEGAL..(which, at that point, is what they'd be). In fact, they might want to be treated just as the local Americans are treated. Very soon, unscrupulous and cost-cutting employers might lose interest in them. Remember, these employers INSIST that they "need" illegals in order to stay in business.....presumably, that's equivalent to saying "we can't AFFORD to pay legal American wages, or give legal American benefits"..so THEN what happens? Don't these new 'legal" people soon lose their jobs to more, even newer, ILLEGAL people, and the cycle repeats? (except that, NOW, we've got even MORE angry displaced workers than we did before ?).

What makes anyone think that an employer determined to staff his operation with illegal workers, is suddenly going to want to begin using LEGAL ones? Isn't his inability to keep LEGAL workers, the very thing that caused him to hire the ILLEGALS in the FIRST place? At least, that was my understanding...

On the other hand, if you're suggesting a two (or three)-pronged approach that INCLUDES sanctioning and penalizing the EMPLOYERS, why not do that NOW? That way, we don't have to make the VERY controversial and ill-conceived move of providing yet ANOTHER blanket amnesty, thus demonstrating once more that "crime DOES pay"....we're STILL being 'beaten over the head' for the PREVIOUS amnesties we've already granted...these seem to have generated at LEAST as much resentment as they have 'thanks".

We don't even NEED to get into the massive outpouring of anger that would be generated among legal workers, who have seen their wages undercut, and lost their benefits, in favor of illegals, at such time as these illegals are ever rewarded by amnesty..that's a whole different LEVEL of irony..
great post and great points ---- if I could rep you I would
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