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Old 05-26-2008, 11:47 AM
 
Location: US
3,074 posts, read 3,336,186 times
Reputation: 1621

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Sir, you are so correct. Go to the online newspapers in that area, find the articles about this raid, and then look at the comments by the locals. I've read comments about hope and quiet and peace. I also read comments about illegals who had been there as long as 11 years and didn't want to leave because they liked it there. Why could they not have previously applied to become citizens at some point during those 11 years. I don't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Rhino View Post
Start naming them.

Like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet the farm that when this raid took place, there were more high-fives between the locals than tears shed for the illegals or worries about how they're going to manage without them.
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:37 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
What you're alluding to is the old standard "MEChA" bromide that states "YOUR ancestors came here,.." etc etc etc. That's true....as I've often said, "MY...(or "our")..ancestors DID come here. THey 'took their lumps', they 'sank or swam', they were treated rather 'brusquely' by the 'natives', and somehow, they made it, because the low-tech, 'manual labor...farming' economy of that time had a NEED for them. Meanwhile, Mr. "MEChA", YOUR ancestors did NOT come here...they stayed home..and today, there's no more NEED for huge waves of poorly-educated immigrants. WE can't even accommodate our own poorly-educated LOCALS. We now have a high-tech society. It requires a high-tech work force. Those who can't 'make it' get resentful
Mr. Mecha?!? I am not Mexican-American and grew up with so few Mexicans and Mexican-Americans that I can literally count them on my two hands. The sympathy I express is for Mexican immigrants and not for Mexican-Americans who believe in racist ideologies like "la raza" and "la reconquista." I see a huge difference between your average Mexican immigrant and an extremist from Mecha, and I give my compassion only to the former. I am 0% Native American; in fact, all of my ancestors are from Europe. I am European-American / Euro-Latin and am from Miami, which is nowhere near Mexico and that, surprisingly, has very few mestizo Hispanics. I don't have an inkling of "brown pride" in my body because I cannot relate to it, so it's not like I come to this forum with a hidden agenda when I speak about these issues.
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:53 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Rhino View Post
Start naming them.
Like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet the farm that when this raid took place, there were more high-fives between the locals than tears shed for the illegals or worries about how they're going to manage without them.
Here are two examples which I have seen in multiple places:

1) Illegal Polish, Czech, and Slovak immigrants in Key West, FL filling jobs in restaurants and stores during a time when the average price of a home in that city was 15 times the average household income and some employers literally had to produce less / be open less because there were so few workers available. Put simply, the cost of living was/is so high that workers couldn't be found, and the Eastern European illegal immigrants were the ones that did the job. The Eastern European immigrants were (and to an extent still are) the lifeblood of the service industry in that area. Locals were mad as hell when Duncan Donuts was closed for a week after a raid in which all the workers were taken from the store. I heard people who normally are anti-"illegal" make comments like "They were such good workers! Why did they raid Duncan Donuts? Just let them be, they work hard!"

2) Illegal Mexican and Central American immigrants in Plainfield, NJ who purchased and rented long-vacant storefronts in a downtown ravaged by race riots in the late 1960's and had become an African-American ghetto. Nowadays, downtown Plainfield is bustling again due to Latin-American-oriented businesses and their clientele, which not only come from the community but also from other nearby communities to shop in downtown Plainfield. Downtown Plainfield - for all practical purposes - had died and the "illegals" revived it. Vacancies have gone up, crime has gone down, and the city is becoming a more diverse and desirable place to live after having developed a very bad reputation due to crime and urban decay.

I am pro-"illegal" when the "illegals" are productive members of society, and I certaintly think that MOST "illegals" contribute positively to our communities.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Here are two examples which I have seen in multiple places:

1) Illegal Polish, Czech, and Slovak immigrants in Key West, FL filling jobs in restaurants and stores during a time when the average price of a home in that city was 15 times the average household income and some employers literally had to produce less / be open less because there were so few workers available. Put simply, the cost of living was/is so high that workers couldn't be found, and the Eastern European illegal immigrants were the ones that did the job. The Eastern European immigrants were (and to an extent still are) the lifeblood of the service industry in that area. Locals were mad as hell when Duncan Donuts was closed for a week after a raid in which all the workers were taken from the store. I heard people who normally are anti-"illegal" make comments like "They were such good workers! Why did they raid Duncan Donuts? Just let them be, they work hard!"

2) Illegal Mexican and Central American immigrants in Plainfield, NJ who purchased and rented long-vacant storefronts in a downtown ravaged by race riots in the late 1960's and had become an African-American ghetto. Nowadays, downtown Plainfield is bustling again due to Latin-American-oriented businesses and their clientele, which not only come from the community but also from other nearby communities to shop in downtown Plainfield. Downtown Plainfield - for all practical purposes - had died and the "illegals" revived it. Vacancies have gone up, crime has gone down, and the city is becoming a more diverse and desirable place to live after having developed a very bad reputation due to crime and urban decay.

I am pro-"illegal" when the "illegals" are productive members of society, and I certaintly think that MOST "illegals" contribute positively to our communities.
And the flip side is if housing/living costs are so out of control for Americans; the solution is simple.

Said costs have to go down; subsidizing a bunch of 'Yuppie' investors with illegal immigrant labor is unfair at best and criminal at worst.

I for one have no sympathy if the housing market crashes......it went up too high and too fast as it is.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:36 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Here are two examples which I have seen in multiple places:

1) Illegal Polish, Czech, and Slovak immigrants in Key West, FL filling jobs in restaurants and stores during a time when the average price of a home in that city was 15 times the average household income and some employers literally had to produce less / be open less because there were so few workers available. Put simply, the cost of living was/is so high that workers couldn't be found, and the Eastern European illegal immigrants were the ones that did the job. The Eastern European immigrants were (and to an extent still are) the lifeblood of the service industry in that area. Locals were mad as hell when Duncan Donuts was closed for a week after a raid in which all the workers were taken from the store. I heard people who normally are anti-"illegal" make comments like "They were such good workers! Why did they raid Duncan Donuts? Just let them be, they work hard!"

2) Illegal Mexican and Central American immigrants in Plainfield, NJ who purchased and rented long-vacant storefronts in a downtown ravaged by race riots in the late 1960's and had become an African-American ghetto. Nowadays, downtown Plainfield is bustling again due to Latin-American-oriented businesses and their clientele, which not only come from the community but also from other nearby communities to shop in downtown Plainfield. Downtown Plainfield - for all practical purposes - had died and the "illegals" revived it. Vacancies have gone up, crime has gone down, and the city is becoming a more diverse and desirable place to live after having developed a very bad reputation due to crime and urban decay.

I am pro-"illegal" when the "illegals" are productive members of society, and I certaintly think that MOST "illegals" contribute positively to our communities.

What about the illegals of Postville? You know, the ones that you were so sure were vitalizing a depressed part of Iowa? They were making $5 an hour at a packing plant. The packing plant was under reporting workplace injuries so as not to have to follow OSHA rules. The illegals were operating a meth lab on the premises. (though I imagine they would have to, as even in Postville IA $5 is not enough to live on, much less support a family)
But you are not talking about those illegals, right? Or those employers who drastically underpay their illegal workforce and don't follow OSHA practices in a highly dangerous line of work.......
And those Czech illegals at Dunkin Donuts? How much were they being paid an hour? Were they getting insurance or were they clogging up ERs and then not paying the tab? What about ssns? Whose were they using?
Regardless of country of origin, illegal aliens is not good for our country, or our economy.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:09 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
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I really don't have much to say about safety violations... if there are violations they should be reported and fixed regardless of whether the workers that could be hurt by them are legal or illegal. About the meth lab, that sounds like a huge exception to me; I mean, how many "illegals" actually produce and sell drugs? A tiny minority. About the low wages, it is unfortunate that employers take advantage of undocumented immigrants, but in some places, they are quite literally the only ones who will do the job. I just don't know that if salaries were raised to $15 that there would be enough legal Americans/immigrants to fill the job openings. The "illegals" keep the plants going. I know some people would rather have a closed plant and no "illegals," but I would prefer the "illegals" and an open plant.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
1,744 posts, read 6,486,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
. I just don't know that if salaries were raised to $15 that there would be enough legal Americans/immigrants to fill the job openings. .

There were. Who was working in the Postville plant when they closed it down the first time? There were lots of packing plants in Iowa in operation way before we started getting waves of illegal immigrants...and they all hired people from the local communities. If you give people a decent wage, they will work there. When the wage you offer is the same (or less) than what you would make standing behind the register at Casey's, it's a no-brainer.
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:14 AM
 
3,884 posts, read 8,758,139 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I really don't have much to say about safety violations... if there are violations they should be reported and fixed regardless of whether the workers that could be hurt by them are legal or illegal. About the meth lab, that sounds like a huge exception to me; I mean, how many "illegals" actually produce and sell drugs? A tiny minority. About the low wages, it is unfortunate that employers take advantage of undocumented immigrants, but in some places, they are quite literally the only ones who will do the job. I just don't know that if salaries were raised to $15 that there would be enough legal Americans/immigrants to fill the job openings. The "illegals" keep the plants going. I know some people would rather have a closed plant and no "illegals," but I would prefer the "illegals" and an open plant.
In Arizona there are so many drug dealers who are illegal bringing drugs over here. It's a huge business for illegals. The drug cartel from Mexico is huge!!!! They have underground tunnel systems. They will shoot you if you are in there way as well! It is not a few, it is a lot. Listen, if your a up- standing citizen of Mexico and make a decent living you're not going to leave there. The people who leave there and come over here by illegal means are the same as the Americans who run to Mexico to escape the law. They also go to Mexico illegally. They are usually doing illegal things before they come here as well. There are a lot of regular people in Mexico that don't come here illegally, nor do they do anything illegal in their own country. The illegals we get they don't want either. That's why they don't really stop them. I talk to a lot of people visiting or studying here from Mexico, who plan to go back, and they say for the most part the illegals are the bottom of their society and we can have them! The more we get, the safer it is in Mexico. It's not their middle class running over the border. They are not having a war over there, nor are they fleeing a natural disaster. They cannot make it in their society. That's what we get when we get illegals. Other wise they would just come legally. You can't come over legally when you're hiding something. Where do our criminals run to when they are in trouble here and don't want to be found? Think about it! If your poor in Mexico and run the border to get here then you're our problem. And in our economic climate, it is a problem. If you're running drugs in Mexico and come over here then you're our problem. We need to stop being so foolish.
We need to stop taking over Mexico's problem and adopting it as our own. We have enough to deal with.
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:40 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,035,044 times
Reputation: 2873
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I really don't have much to say about safety violations... if there are violations they should be reported and fixed regardless of whether the workers that could be hurt by them are legal or illegal. About the meth lab, that sounds like a huge exception to me; I mean, how many "illegals" actually produce and sell drugs? A tiny minority. About the low wages, it is unfortunate that employers take advantage of undocumented immigrants, but in some places, they are quite literally the only ones who will do the job. I just don't know that if salaries were raised to $15 that there would be enough legal Americans/immigrants to fill the job openings. The "illegals" keep the plants going. I know some people would rather have a closed plant and no "illegals," but I would prefer the "illegals" and an open plant.
Are you kidding? Iowans who are too dainty to work in a packing plant? In these small towns the people are all going to have some connection with farming (hence cattle/pigs) and are quite used to slaughtering them. We won't even go into the popularity of hunting!
You are quite right when you say that no citizen is going to work in a packing plant for $5 an hour. $15 an hour is probably going to be a new hires wage. I know that in the rarefied echelons that is known as law school, some may think that those that work in packing houses are going to be illiterate and not worth more then $15 an hour. See, packing houses are an incredibly dangerous line of work (not to mention messy) and they are paid to compensate for that danger. Unless they are illegal. And that is wrong for the community and for the illegals themselves.
As far as mass closings of plants without the presense of slave, er, illegal labor? No. It is big business --- bought a steak lately? --- and business will go on and small towns will survive.
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Old 05-27-2008, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I really don't have much to say about safety violations... if there are violations they should be reported and fixed regardless of whether the workers that could be hurt by them are legal or illegal. About the meth lab, that sounds like a huge exception to me; I mean, how many "illegals" actually produce and sell drugs? A tiny minority. About the low wages, it is unfortunate that employers take advantage of undocumented immigrants, but in some places, they are quite literally the only ones who will do the job. I just don't know that if salaries were raised to $15 that there would be enough legal Americans/immigrants to fill the job openings. The "illegals" keep the plants going. I know some people would rather have a closed plant and no "illegals," but I would prefer the "illegals" and an open plant.
Man you keep believing the lies. Many americans were forced out of their trades because illegals lo-balled the wages. I am one of the victims.
Many honest americans have had their lives ruined by ID theft so that your hard working honest illegals could serve up some donuts. The price tag is way to high. Bottom line is we owe illegals nothing but deportation papers.
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