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Old 05-30-2008, 06:25 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 11,645,266 times
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Illegal immigrants are often good for this country because they satisfy demand for labor that cannot just be met with the small number of legal immigrants being allowed into this country each year. We need more immigrants, and the economy doesn't really care if they're legal or illegal. This is the crux of my "pro-illegal" argument. Additionally, there have been studies that say that the average illegal immigrant puts more into the economy (in taxes, etc.) than he consumes in government services. I don't have these numbers or the articles (the studies happened over a year ago), so I really can't share them or expound upon them here.
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Old 05-30-2008, 06:28 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 11,645,266 times
Reputation: 1701
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
I thought you were a student? Do you actually pay tax? I thought you had to have an income to do so.

BTW, I do not agree with your idea that we are obligated to provide ANY service for those who are here illegally, except to show them the EXIT sign. But I suppose you leave your door unlocked wherever it is you live, and if a homeless person shows up in your bed, instead of kicking him out you offer to put his kids through college, right?

Whether or not someone in this country illegally 'plans to stay' here is also beside the point - when I go to my neighbor's house uninvited and he asks me to leave, I can "plan to stay" all I want but will probably end up with a big boot mark on my butt.
I am a law student now, but I still do work. Before law school I worked as well, so it's not like I've never received a paycheck with taxes taken out of it. I'd rather pay higher taxes to live in a country that holds itself out to be the first world, and that includes providing public education to every child who, legally or illegally, lives in a given school district. As harsh as it may sound, I feel no shame in taking away a few extra dollars per paycheck from the average person in "middle America" so that ALL children can be given the education necessary to be productive members of society in the future.
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Earth
539 posts, read 2,097,829 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Kindly explain how illegal immigrants are good for this country.
Crisp444 has been asked to back up his claims for some time now, to no avail. Crisp444 I do see in one of your last posts that you have read studies that have some statistics to back up your claims but you can't provide them to us because "they are over a year old". First of all if you are a law student then you have access to some serious archives, I'm sure you can provide the studies for us to see for ourselves. In other words, put your money where your mouth is or please stop spouting about illegals paying taxes and the like. I don't see how this is possible without a SS number. Unless of course, as another poster suggested, the SS number has been stolen
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Earth
539 posts, read 2,097,829 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
As harsh as it may sound, I feel no shame in taking away a few extra dollars per paycheck from the average person in "middle America" so that ALL children can be given the education necessary to be productive members of society in the future.
I've said it before and I'm saying it again. Please re-read my post about the plight of today's education system! There isn't enough money for the bare necessities. Programs are being cut. Supplies are limited. Important positions such as school counselors and psychologists are being done away with. The schools are bursting at the seams as children are being taught off of carts and in portables. The U.S.A.'s education system is in a turmoil. Maybe you should focus more of your time on reading up on this crisis instead of worrying about educating illegals. If things keep going the way they are, perhaps no child will be able to receive "a decent education that is necessary to be a productive member of society". We already see schools pushing the students up the ranks and out the door because there isn't any room for them. Why do you think there are so many illiterate people in the world today. I kind of liked the suggestion another poster made, let's send our children to other countries where these illegals come from for education. We can see how their educational systems can withstand the onslaught.
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 42,040,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Illegal immigrants are often good for this country because they satisfy demand for labor that cannot just be met with the small number of legal immigrants being allowed into this country each year. We need more immigrants, and the economy doesn't really care if they're legal or illegal. This is the crux of my "pro-illegal" argument. Additionally, there have been studies that say that the average illegal immigrant puts more into the economy (in taxes, etc.) than he consumes in government services. I don't have these numbers or the articles (the studies happened over a year ago), so I really can't share them or expound upon them here.
Try again.

One huge reason that it is tough to find Americans or even green card holders to work in places like most of Calif, Wash DC, NYC, etc. is due to the high cost of living ($$$ rents, etc) hence many of us saying 'adios' for lower cost states like Arizona, W Virginia, etc.

If it takes a crushing blow to the housing market in the above places to allow Americans back in to work------so be it.

Again: we do not 'need' illegals-----just that many so-called 'American' employers are greedy in their refusal to pay market rate wages.
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Old 05-30-2008, 07:59 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 11,645,266 times
Reputation: 1701
Many of you speak as if "illegals" are, on a large scale, putting Americans out of work. I just don't see that happening; in fact, unemployment has been lower during the 1990's and 2000's (times of massive illegal immigration) than during the 1970's and 1980's. Americans change jobs and "illegals" take their place. Sure, I'm sure that someone can produce an example where "illegals" have taken jobs from Americans because employers can pay less to the "illegals," but based on what I have seen and read this does NOT seem to be the case. The economy absorbes "illegals" just fine because there aren't enough legal immigrants or native-born Americans to satisfy demand for economic expansion.

Coolmommy: the point of the article was that the average illegal immigrant gives more than he takes, and cited a couple numbers with that. I don't want to spend a long time looking this up because take it or leave it, the point was that illegal immigrants put more into the economy / pay more taxes than they consume in government services. I have consistently backed my positions with arguments; it's not like people who are "anti-illegal" have done any better of a job backing their arguments than I have backing mine. Sure, most of you disagree with me, but at least I explain myself instead of just saying "Illegal is illegal and illegals DON'T help the economy!"
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Old 05-31-2008, 11:32 AM
 
Location: US
3,090 posts, read 3,956,264 times
Reputation: 1648
To say that people are just posting opinions without any articles, studies, information, let alone dismissing the opinions of the people which have been posted herein with real working experiences is unfounded and irresponsible. You say based on what you've read and seen, immigrants are not taking jobs of American people, and the economy absorbs illegals "just fine." Please post your research on these point to make me change my mind, and not just opinions of the pro-illegals. Until you do, consider the following:

Center for Immigration Studies

America pays for this cheap labor. What an illegal costs is far more than what the illegal pays in taxes, if anything. Low levels of education costs America. Education is much more of a factor in "economic success" than it was when immigrants came from foreign countries here to America many, many years ago. As coolmommy has been trying to explain to you from her real working world experience, which you dismiss, America cannot afford it. Having said that, if someone would become a citizen, then they are entitled to every privilege and benefit American has to offer if they are so deemed to be eligible to be a recipient.

You say we are a first world country and should extend education to third world countries. How long do you think America is going to be a first world country with millions upon millions of uneducated children being given and to be given a free education if amnesty is granted and everything is provided for free with no controls whatsoever? Consider this article:

High Cost of Medical Care for Illegal Immigrants

This article describes a study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform wherein it was determined that in 2004 (four years ago), the annual uncompensated cost of medical care for illegal immigrants in California was $1.4 billion and the total uncompensated educational, health care and incarceration costs were estimated to be $10.5 billion. And we wonder why California is cutting programs for its American citizens.

See here also about the cost of educating illegal immigrants. FAIR: Breaking the Piggy Bank
If you scroll down this article you will see a state-by-state cost of education of illegals. However, Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982) requires that illegal immigrants' children be educated for free, reasoning that just because their parents have broken the law and the states have ineffectively controlled immigration, the children need to be protected and educated. While I completely disagree, especially now, 20 years later, it is important to note here that if the states would implement more effective controls in immigration, such as Arizona and Oklahoma have, educating illegal immigrant children would be a moot point since, as the case points out, illegals for the most part do not come here so their children can attend school.

As the first article points out, there must be controls. Our country is not in a position to continue to allow the flood gates to remain open hoping that all will work out in the end.

It is uninformed thinking to believe that employers of illegal immigrants pass their labor savings onto the American public in cheaper goods. If someone wants to push illegal immigration, at least be honest about it and say they just want to come here because (1) everything is free and (2) their Mexican President is pushing for them to be here for a number of agendas (Mexico doesn't have to take care of them, they send their money back to Mexico, and Mexico would like to take back the southwest states). As one article describes the President of Mexico, he sees "America's refrigerator as very full, and he is very hungry." Please don't try to fool the American people by saying they're actually good for America.

I don't know what kind of law you hope to practice when you graduate, but you will not be able to make blanket, unsubstantiated statements before a judge in a court room and opposing counsel as you do below. Rest assured, you will have your head handed to you and you may be sued for malpractice. I am fully aware this is a forum and not a court of law, but this is a place to provide good practice for you.

I had the privilege of serving on our state's bar association unlicensed practice of law committee for 3 years. I found that just because many are unaware of the facts of what was really happening, they disputed that UPL was actually occurring. Judge after judge would substantiate the chaos in their courtrooms due to UPL which was and still is occurring, and the state has taken some action. The point of this is that just because someone doesn't see a major issue occurring, doesn't mean it's not occurring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Many of you speak as if "illegals" are, on a large scale, putting Americans out of work. I just don't see that happening; in fact, unemployment has been lower during the 1990's and 2000's (times of massive illegal immigration) than during the 1970's and 1980's. Americans change jobs and "illegals" take their place. Sure, I'm sure that someone can produce an example where "illegals" have taken jobs from Americans because employers can pay less to the "illegals," but based on what I have seen and read this does NOT seem to be the case. The economy absorbes "illegals" just fine because there aren't enough legal immigrants or native-born Americans to satisfy demand for economic expansion.

Coolmommy: the point of the article was that the average illegal immigrant gives more than he takes, and cited a couple numbers with that. I don't want to spend a long time looking this up because take it or leave it, the point was that illegal immigrants put more into the economy / pay more taxes than they consume in government services. I have consistently backed my positions with arguments; it's not like people who are "anti-illegal" have done any better of a job backing their arguments than I have backing mine. Sure, most of you disagree with me, but at least I explain myself instead of just saying "Illegal is illegal and illegals DON'T help the economy!"
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Old 05-31-2008, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Earth
539 posts, read 2,097,829 times
Reputation: 285
Thumbs up Thank you

Carolac, thank you for taking the time to share studies and articles that you have found on this subject. Listening to someone's opinion is a lot easier when you have information to back it up!
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,887 posts, read 36,841,388 times
Reputation: 5663
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
No child should be deprived of public education. I don't care if a child wades across the Rio Grande and shows up to a school five minutes later; the Supreme Court has suggested that free, public education is a pseudo-fundamental right and that it cannot be withheld from anyone, regardless of their immigration status. On another note, illegal immigrant parents pay taxes too, you know.
In a Utopian society, maybe. This is not, or will not be for some time, Utopia. How do you suggest we pay for all of these people streaming across our borders and looking for a free education?

More importantly, how will these people assimilate into our society?

I think you really, really need to think things through before you post.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,887 posts, read 36,841,388 times
Reputation: 5663
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I'm not an extreme liberal, I am a moderate liberal who thinks the economic and social consequences of deporting "illegals" are greater than the costs we have to bear when we accept "illegals" into our society. In other words, I think that in 2008, immigrants - whether legal or illegal - are good for this country and that we would be running ourselves into the ground by trying to enforce outmouded and extremely unaccomodating immigration laws. Are you people really serious that it shouldn't be our responsibility to educate the children of illegal immigrants who are here by no fault of their own? I most certainly think that any first world country has the responsibility of doing so. If we turn away children from out schools, we create social problems in the future with which we will eventually have to deal - and on which we will have to spend the money eventually - TENFOLD.
My question to you is this... Are YOU really serious?

I'd like to hear something concrete on how you think we are supposed to pay for educating the children of a third world country simply by right that we are their neighbor.

The more of this kind of talk I read, I realize how deep of a hole this country is in and we need to start digging ourselves out...

NOW.
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