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Old 05-31-2008, 03:39 PM
 
117 posts, read 282,508 times
Reputation: 42

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I think we should just leave the children for one year in the school. If they have excellent grades, they can stay. If they don't then send them back to Mexico! We should also put an electrical fence along the border, people!
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,924,989 times
Reputation: 5539
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Illegal immigrants are often good for this country because they satisfy demand for labor that cannot just be met with the small number of legal immigrants being allowed into this country each year. We need more immigrants, and the economy doesn't really care if they're legal or illegal. This is the crux of my "pro-illegal" argument. Additionally, there have been studies that say that the average illegal immigrant puts more into the economy (in taxes, etc.) than he consumes in government services. I don't have these numbers or the articles (the studies happened over a year ago), so I really can't share them or expound upon them here.
REALLY? How about the costs of health care? Parkland Hospital in Dallas spends more taxpayer money in providing healthcare services to illegal immigrants than almost any other group. So much that they are about to go broke and are now demanding people show proof of residency for treatment..

How about the cost of auto accidents and illegals that don't have auto insurance? After all, if they don't need any legal documentation to work here, why should they have to pay for something as trivial as auto insurance?

You have a very limited view on this topic, and I do believe a few years of immersing yourself in some facts might enlighten you a bit more.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
My question to you is this... Are YOU really serious?

I'd like to hear something concrete on how you think we are supposed to pay for educating the children of a third world country simply by right that we are their neighbor.

The more of this kind of talk I read, I realize how deep of a hole this country is in and we need to start digging ourselves out...

NOW.
And people like GuyPinestra, Bummer and myself are on the front lines here in Arizona so we see things for ourselves.

Thank God our Employer Sanctions Law has some teeth........at least here in Maricopa County.

California may be lost to illegal immigrant lawbreakers.......but, not Arizona.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,924,989 times
Reputation: 5539
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolac View Post
To say that people are just posting opinions without any articles, studies, information, let alone dismissing the opinions of the people which have been posted herein with real working experiences is unfounded and irresponsible. You say based on what you've read and seen, immigrants are not taking jobs of American people, and the economy absorbs illegals "just fine." Please post your research on these point to make me change my mind, and not just opinions of the pro-illegals. Until you do, consider the following:

Center for Immigration Studies

America pays for this cheap labor. What an illegal costs is far more than what the illegal pays in taxes, if anything. Low levels of education costs America. Education is much more of a factor in "economic success" than it was when immigrants came from foreign countries here to America many, many years ago. As coolmommy has been trying to explain to you from her real working world experience, which you dismiss, America cannot afford it. Having said that, if someone would become a citizen, then they are entitled to every privilege and benefit American has to offer if they are so deemed to be eligible to be a recipient.

You say we are a first world country and should extend education to third world countries. How long do you think America is going to be a first world country with millions upon millions of uneducated children being given and to be given a free education if amnesty is granted and everything is provided for free with no controls whatsoever? Consider this article:

High Cost of Medical Care for Illegal Immigrants

This article describes a study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform wherein it was determined that in 2004 (four years ago), the annual uncompensated cost of medical care for illegal immigrants in California was $1.4 billion and the total uncompensated educational, health care and incarceration costs were estimated to be $10.5 billion. And we wonder why California is cutting programs for its American citizens.

See here also about the cost of educating illegal immigrants. FAIR: Breaking the Piggy Bank
If you scroll down this article you will see a state-by-state cost of education of illegals. However, Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982) requires that illegal immigrants' children be educated for free, reasoning that just because their parents have broken the law and the states have ineffectively controlled immigration, the children need to be protected and educated. While I completely disagree, especially now, 20 years later, it is important to note here that if the states would implement more effective controls in immigration, such as Arizona and Oklahoma have, educating illegal immigrant children would be a moot point since, as the case points out, illegals for the most part do not come here so their children can attend school.

As the first article points out, there must be controls. Our country is not in a position to continue to allow the flood gates to remain open hoping that all will work out in the end.

It is uninformed thinking to believe that employers of illegal immigrants pass their labor savings onto the American public in cheaper goods. If someone wants to push illegal immigration, at least be honest about it and say they just want to come here because (1) everything is free and (2) their Mexican President is pushing for them to be here for a number of agendas (Mexico doesn't have to take care of them, they send their money back to Mexico, and Mexico would like to take back the southwest states). As one article describes the President of Mexico, he sees "America's refrigerator as very full, and he is very hungry." Please don't try to fool the American people by saying they're actually good for America.

I don't know what kind of law you hope to practice when you graduate, but you will not be able to make blanket, unsubstantiated statements before a judge in a court room and opposing counsel as you do below. Rest assured, you will have your head handed to you and you may be sued for malpractice. I am fully aware this is a forum and not a court of law, but this is a place to provide good practice for you.

I had the privilege of serving on our state's bar association unlicensed practice of law committee for 3 years. I found that just because many are unaware of the facts of what was really happening, they disputed that UPL was actually occurring. Judge after judge would substantiate the chaos in their courtrooms due to UPL which was and still is occurring, and the state has taken some action. The point of this is that just because someone doesn't see a major issue occurring, doesn't mean it's not occurring.
I can't say enough to thank you for providing such a thorough, intelligent response. I appreciate very much that you took the time. Your post is extremely informative.
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Old 05-31-2008, 05:32 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
Reputation: 1675
Carolac: you are absolutely right that my posts here aren't doctoral theses and that this forum is not a court of law. I don't have time to write a long thesis to "prove" to you all that immigration (and including, in 2008, illegal immigration at its current level) is good for this country; this isn't a fact; it is my OPINION and I am entitled to express it just as you all are entitled to express your opinions (the overwhelming majority of which are not in accord with my own). I have no more of a burden of proof than anyone else on this forum.

Synopsis: of course I have thought out what my position on this issue is. I agree that there is a problem (illegal immigration), but disagree about the which aspects of illegal immigration are actually problematic. For me, it's an issue of the government making it much easier to get to this country legally and to become legal once you've arrived illegally; for most of you it's about the fact that they are here illegally. Of course there are negative consequences of illegal immigration; they can be greatly reduced if the government would acknowledge that we need thousands upon thousands of LEGAL immigrants to come each year. "Illegals" will continue to be part of the American landscape unless a) demand for immigrants subsides or b) the US government takes major steps to make legal immigration a MORE FEASIBLE (time-wise and money-wise) option than illegal immigration. I too believe that "playing by the rules," is better in the long run, but right now it's just not worth it for many immigrants and employers to play by the current rules. Change the rules instead of hardheadedly enforcing them; in my opinion, they are outmoded.
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Old 06-01-2008, 03:49 PM
 
93 posts, read 297,393 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakiryu View Post
I think we should just leave the children for one year in the school. If they have excellent grades, they can stay. If they don't then send them back to Mexico! We should also put an electrical fence along the border, people!
Awesome! Can we kick out all of the other stupid and/or learning disabled kids too? Special education is a huge burden to our economy, and I don't see why my taxes should go to support someone else's kid in a wheelchair at 10 times the cost . BTW, they also really burden our healthcare system...deport the special kids! God Bless America! Support the troops!
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Old 06-01-2008, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,174,407 times
Reputation: 391
The US LEGALLY admits close to 2 million people a year to our nation, more than ALL OTHER nations of the world COMBINED!!! Crisp444 seems to think that isn't enough, so he has no problem with looking the other way as 5 million or more come EVERY YEAR illegally.

My question is simple...

How many is enough????
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by crewbank View Post
Awesome! Can we kick out all of the other stupid and/or learning disabled kids too? Special education is a huge burden to our economy, and I don't see why my taxes should go to support someone else's kid in a wheelchair at 10 times the cost . BTW, they also really burden our healthcare system...deport the special kids! God Bless America! Support the troops!
Try again.

We as a nation have a responsibility to our own (American) children.....

I can even support taking care of the US born Anchor Babies-----but, their illegal immigrant parents need to leave.

Needless to say: the Anchor Baby loophole needs to be closed......just grandfather in the ones already born. In 18 years; there will be no more Anchors (besides, most of the deported parents will take their kids with them).
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,203,701 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Carolac: you are absolutely right that my posts here aren't doctoral theses and that this forum is not a court of law.
Quote:
I don't have time to write a long thesis to "prove" to you all that immigration (and including, in 2008, illegal immigration at its current level) is good for this country;
this isn't a fact; it is my OPINION and I am entitled to express it just as you all are entitled to express your opinions (the overwhelming majority of which are not in accord with my own). I have no more of a burden of proof than anyone else on this forum.

Synopsis: of course I have thought out what my position on this issue is. I agree that there is a problem (illegal immigration), but disagree about the which aspects of illegal immigration are actually problematic. For me, it's an issue of the government making it much easier to get to this country legally and to become legal once you've arrived illegally; for most of you it's about the fact that they are here illegally. Of course there are negative consequences of illegal immigration; they can be greatly reduced if the government would acknowledge that we need thousands upon thousands of LEGAL immigrants to come each year. "Illegals" will continue to be part of the American landscape unless a) demand for immigrants subsides or b) the US government takes major steps to make legal immigration a MORE FEASIBLE (time-wise and money-wise) option than illegal immigration. I too believe that "playing by the rules," is better in the long run, but right now it's just not worth it for many immigrants and employers to play by the current rules.
Quote:
Change the rules instead of hardheadedly enforcing them; in my opinion, they are outmoded.
Reading your post have proven to me that you have never experienced (or studied) any of the "in your face", "up front" affects from Illegal Immgration that most of us here on this forum have experienced first hand.
You make it sound like this is some game. Your not affected either way, so your self centered opinion is, "they're not affecting me, so let them keep coming and do what they want." Whether it's legal or contuniously ignoring our laws". I don't care if 80% of the US citizen are affected or not!

So why are you on this forum anyway?
You just like to ruffle feathers and stir up arguments.
Your not even worth a response.

You need to get out and get a taste of REALITY, before REALITY gets a taste of you.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:18 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,275,065 times
Reputation: 1675
That's ironic to hear that I don't have experience with "illegals." I am from South Florida, one of the regions to which many of you love to refer when giving examples of "illegal immigration gone mad." Second, I volunteered my time for three years while teaching ENGLISH LITERACY to immigrant adults (most of them illegal!) in Boston, MA. Third, I now live in New York, to which many of you so kindly refer as a "sanctuary city (for illegal immigrants)". I may not be from El Paso, TX or Los Angeles, CA, but to suggest that I don't have experience interacting with "illegals" is pretty absurd. I doubt that most of you on this forum have interacted with these immigrants as much as I have. I'm not just some clueless dingbat with a keyboard; I do think before I speak.

Last edited by Marlin331; 06-01-2008 at 10:27 PM..
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