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Old 05-25-2008, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
How does your view account for simple participation in the US market for labor? Naturalization and labor market participation are two different things, and not necessarily mutually inclusive.
Legal immigrants are good.

Illegal immigrants are not good------especially millions of those lawbreakers.

Need I say more?
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:02 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70 View Post
I agree with most of the posters but then pray do tell when it comes to illegals why does it always become a Mexican issue? btw I am not hispanic! I know that there are parts of this country experiencing an influx of immigrant though their legal stat may not be obvious, I am just so sick and tired of the the posters that connect illegal with Hispanic...
....Here in the Southwest, the large majority of illegals aren't from "overseas"...they're "walk-ins", and MOST are Hispanic...and most of THOSE are from Mexico..

....Mexicans are unique in the fact that they are the only immigrant group (or ILLEGAL immigrant group) which loudly and publically claims an inherent right to come here, legally or not. Most illegals in the US live quietly "below the radar'. Mexicans did, too, until recently. Now they don't.

...Also another factor, in my opinion, is that Hispanic illegals, (specifically, mostly Mexicans, who have arrived 'by land") are now rapidly 'dispersing' throughout the US. Mexicans have long been a familiar part of the American 'experience" here in the Southwest..they have been here since BEFORE it was the Southwest. Now, though, they're showing up in large numbers in OTHER parts of the US...many times, in places that not only aren't 'familiar' with Mexicans, they're not familiar with ANY group of immigrants. Particularly in the South, ANY immigration was just about unheard of until recent decades...many of these areas were 97% American born, black or white. NOW they are not only "discovering" Mexicans, they are finding out that a substantial number of these 'new folks' are here illegally.

Given the fact that some parts of the US haven't always had the most 'welcoming' attitude toward ANY 'outsider', the grumbling and griping about "The Mexicans" you see is disappointing, but can hardly be called 'surprising'.

Largely, the unpleasantness you see on this forum is just the usual thing that happens any time those 'in charge' abdicate their responsibilities. In this case, when the "immigration" people openly and publically quit doing their job, and we end up with millions upon milions of people here who really 'aren't supposed to BE here", then this is what happens...the 'little people' begin to gripe and complain...groups like "the Minutemen" crop up, etc...people start looking for someone to blame...fairly or unfairly.

It would be the same in any case where "the Authorities" turned a blind eye to their responsibilities. If law enforcement began to allow millions of cases of unsafe driving, or trespassing, or shoplifting, without any attempt at "cracking down", it wouldn't be long before angry and frustrated citizens began looking for solutions, and coming up with ways to "do something about it".
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,428 posts, read 5,491,844 times
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Default outflux

Look there will be always be racism when it comes to immigration. Heck my genetic line is from two of the most loathed immigrants populations back in the day. That would be the Irish and Italian. But over time as they learned to assimilate and slowly gained political power by electing sons and daughter of there population those ethic groups started to really meld in. And eventually those groups for the most part are invisible when it comes to race or ethic issue. Basically they're just Americans now.

The only sticking point in this whole immigrant thing besides the immigrants sneaking in. Is the fact that there are some who come there that are not making the effort to assimilate. Some are not even willing to meet our society halfway and try to learn the language and culture. I not saying they need to total give up there culture and identity. But meet us halfway and at least try to fit into American society. Fortunately I been luck more the most part to meet aliens legal and illegal that have tried to make the effort to learn the language and basic culture of the northeast region. So I have a positive view of the whole situation.


Also one last thing. All those who can't stand illegal immigrant may get there wish to see the illegals go home. But it's not going to be because of tougher law enforcement or because businesses will do the right thing and not hire illegals. No. It going to be because America is going to get hit by a big recession and the illegals are going to run for greener pastures. So when you start not to see American teenagers cutting your lawns again (I know stereotyping) you better start panicking.
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:39 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
Look there will be always be racism when it comes to immigration. Heck my genetic line is from two of the most loathed immigrants populations back in the day. That would be the Irish and Italian. But over time as they learned to assimilate and slowly gained political power by electing sons and daughter of there population those ethic groups started to really meld in. And eventually those groups for the most part are invisible when it comes to race or ethic issue. Basically they're just Americans now.

The only sticking point in this whole immigrant thing besides the immigrants sneaking in. Is the fact that there are some who come there that are not making the effort to assimilate. Some are not even willing to meet our society halfway and try to learn the language and culture. I not saying they need to total give up there culture and identity. But meet us halfway and at least try to fit into American society. Fortunately I been luck more the most part to meet aliens legal and illegal that have tried to make the effort to learn the language and basic culture of the northeast region. So I have a positive view of the whole situation.


Also one last thing. All those who can't stand illegal immigrant may get there wish to see the illegals go home. But it's not going to be because of tougher law enforcement or because businesses will do the right thing and not hire illegals. No. It going to be because America is going to get hit by a big recession and the illegals are going to run for greener pastures. So when you start not to see American teenagers cutting your lawns again (I know stereotyping) you better start panicking.
Exactly right. I've stated this many times. Back "in the days", immigrants faced a tough 'sell' coming in. The idea was you were a 'foreigner', and you were expected to make the considerable effort that it took to "fit in"...and this was looked at as only right, because being an American was 'special', and a very worthy goal. Many of these immigrants ended up becoming VERY patriotic. The "old foreigner" down the street with the huge American flag on his porch was a familiar figure to many.

Today, we have a sort of 'anything goes' attitude. People aren't arriving looking for freedom...they're arriving looking to get a better job. Our attitude here has changed, also. Being big on multiculturalism, we no longer expect, nor do we demand, that anyone assimilate. It's "OK", but it's mostly just a personal decision.

Because so many of these people arrive here from very "proud' cultures...and because WE HERE don't appear to care whether they assimilate or NOT...it's pretty easy to see why many new arrivals feel little pressure to 'fit in' or change their former ways...In fact, many of us here in the US are busily engaged in arguing among ourselves as to just what, exactly, is "an American", anyway? So even if the newcomers DID feel a desire to assimilate, the next question becomes. "assimilate to WHAT, exactly?".....if WE can't answer this, it's pretty easy to see why THEY can't, either.
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:29 PM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Legal immigrants are good.

Illegal immigrants are not good------especially millions of those lawbreakers.

Need I say more?
I can only agree with you to the extent they are immigrants and not merely migrant, black market labor participants. They are two different things.

Illegal migrant, black market labor participation can easily be solved with market friendly public policy.

Naturalization is a different matter and beyond the scope of what I was referring to.
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Old 05-25-2008, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,428 posts, read 5,491,844 times
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Default apple pie

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
In fact, many of us here in the US are busily engaged in arguing among ourselves as to just what, exactly, is "an American", anyway? So even if the newcomers DID feel a desire to assimilate, the next question becomes. "assimilate to WHAT, exactly?".....if WE can't answer this, it's pretty easy to see why THEY can't, either.
While you are very correct with this. Their are some very basic things immigrants can do to fit in.
Now while we don't have a national language. I would argue that the documents that founded our country were written in English. So I just ask all new immigrants to at least try to learn some English. In order to communicate with the majority of people in the nation. I think this would go along way in helping relations with the new immigrants.
Also I think the idea of "showing" loyalty to America is important. Now look. I know it not fair to immigrant to put pressure on them to wave the flag and to force participation in "American" culture. (That whole hard work, saluting the stars and strips, barbecuing, drinking Budweiser, and eating apple pie thing) But if your coming here and you want to fit in unfortunately you have to be doubly patriotic around the natives. Basically be more American than Americans are. This will hopefully help (I think ) calm any Xenophobes that fear foreigners. Now I know that the Irish still celebrate Saint Patrick's day. And you'll still see Irish flags here and there (at least in the northeast.) But for the longest time the Irish keep the whole thing on the down low until they were better excepted by the rest of the country. Now-a-day the new Immigrants must do the same thing in order to be excepted. So guys (immigrants) you may have to swallow your pride for awhile and build up trust so that eventually you'll be excepted by the masses of the American population. Basically you have to "show" loyalty beyond loyalty. It not fair but it's true.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:26 AM
 
4,997 posts, read 13,540,476 times
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Quote:
Immigrants of all nationalities, colors, and creeds bring great life, texture and food to our country. For me, it is all about legal vs illegal and the inherent crime that comes with the illegality.
Very true.


I love the Mexican people, so if they came here legally it would be great. My problem is with the companies that hire them for little money. I think they should give them the same wages as any American, but I also think that wages for Americans should be greatly raised. I think that the laws should be changed so that companies can't pay small wages, and that Americans should be hired first. And actually I am very partial to Mexicans. I like them better than a lot of races in that their culture is more interesting to me. I like that they are hard workers and family oriented.
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:55 PM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
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What about a market friendly work-visa public policy scheme? A hypothetical, market friendly work visa could end the problem of back market, migrant labor in the US.

Illegals and illegality due to "jaywalking" across a State line would no longer be an issue because anyone not having a work visa would be fined and issued one.
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
What about a market friendly work-visa public policy scheme? A hypothetical, market friendly work visa could end the problem of back market, migrant labor in the US.

Illegals and illegality due to "jaywalking" across a State line would no longer be an issue because anyone not having a work visa would be fined and issued one.
What are you talking about?

An American/green card holder walking across a state line has no parallel with someone coming here illegally from another country.
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Old 05-26-2008, 09:42 PM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,098,330 times
Reputation: 479
I was referring to a market friendly work visa public policy scheme.

It concerns generating revenue from well-regulated interstate commerce.

Naturalization and labor market participation are two different things. It is beyond the scope of my argument to discuss naturalization issues.

As a form of commerce, labor market participation can be influenced by a public sector engaged in promoting and providing for the general welfare of the Union.

We could be reducing public and private sector costs, by simply adhering to our Constitution.
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