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Old 06-02-2008, 09:05 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,692,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

It is what it is!

Someone driving their car and someone driving their car without a drivers license are both driving their cars.
Too true...

Well, with the exception of that pesky little legality issue, but then again, to those with no affinity for the rule of law, it makes little difference.

Thus the reason that many folks on this forum seem to have so much difficulty distinguishing between that which is legal and that which is illegal.

Last edited by Kele; 06-02-2008 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:40 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,039,458 times
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[quote=amc760;3956777]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post

It is what it is!

Someone driving their car and someone driving their car without a drivers license are both driving their cars.
And people using a ssn whether its their own or not are just putting numbers on paper (unless you are the unlucky sob whos ssn got stolen and now your credit is in the trash)

And people who get into car accidents without insurance are exactly the same as people who get into car accidents with insurance (unless you are the unlucky sob that got hit, then you may have a different perspective...)

And people who work in construction or restaurants or packing plants are exactly the same whether they are here legally or not (except that those who work illegally are getting paid sub par wages thus cutting out legal blue collar workers who demand fair wages and safe work environments)

Yeah....exactly the same.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
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[quote=amc760;3955922]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Don't ....[/[/b]quote]

An immigrant is someone who come to this country from another hoping to settle.
Some do it legally, some do it illegally.

But thats what they are. Immigrants.

.
If you are sincere (and I assume you are), and the only possible opposition that you can conceive of toward illegal immigration is that people "hate Hispanics", then so be it. That's your right. It fails to address the many Hispanic-Americans that are part of our society, (many of them in my family), who are outspokenly opposed to illegal immigration. I guess it makes no impact on their lives or their income....it's just because they "hate themselves".....(I guess)....

My guess is that you yourself are making this a racial issue, in some sort of misguided attempt at "ethnic pride". That's a dangerous path to follow, and if it held true for ALL of us, would result in disaster. Our society would end up like the Balkans, where each group "sticks with its own", right or wrong, because it's 'their group'.

Your above analogy is a popular one....it's been used again and again, and will continue to be. But it's still wrong. Coming here illegally is NOT "just the same" as coming here legally. You can say that, and you may even BELIEVE that (though I suspect you'd change your mind if the illegals were from Haiti, or Pakistan, or Lithuania). But I won't argue with you....your beliefs are yours.

But if you're really consistent, and continue to maintain that "some do it legally, and some don't", and that's "all there is to it", then consistency (and intellectual honesty) would ALSO require that you admit the following...

(1) Some people enter a store, select their merchandise, pay for it, and leave. Others enter the store, put the merchandise in their pockets, and leave without paying. But they're ALL 'shoppers'. The ones who pay are just like the ones who don't. And some people don't pay because the store management has set the prices too high, not because they're thieves...Besides, most people who own stores are rich, anyway.

(2) Some guys go away to college for years, get a degree in Pharmacology, and find work as a pharmacist. Others buy cocaine and crack to sell on the street. But they're ALL people who make their income by selling drugs....and there's really no difference in them, as people....people just naturally LIKE pharmacists, because most are Asians..but HATE Drug dealers, because most are Hispanic....right? Some drugs are legal, and others aren't..but they're all drugs.

(3) Sometimes a neighbor will borrow one of your tools. Others will simply break into your garage and take them...but they're all just 'people who need a tool'..(in this case, one of YOUR tools), and the way they get them isn't important. Besides, most people who lock their garages are racists who distrust their neighbors..if they didn't, they could prove it by leaving their garages unlocked.

(4) Some people drink WAY too much, and get a designated driver to drive them home. Others drink WAY too much, and drive THEMSELVES home. But either way, there's no great difference. Even drunk drivers don't USUALLY kill other people, and all they really want to do is drive, just like you and I do. Prosecuting drunk drivers is wrong, because they aren't violent, and don't intentionally hurt anyone. Most drunk drivers are actually nice people, with just one 'bad habit'. And when drunk drivers, on rare occasions, DO kill innocent people, they're almost always sorry.

Shoppers or shoplifters.....trespassers or guests....counterfeiters or bank tellers....we're all just 'people', and we're trying to 'make it'. Some do it legally, some look for ways AROUND the 'system'....A contractor who'll build a bridge up to "code"..or a contractor who'll build a bridge with "most" of the parts, it really doesn't matter..they both work hard, and they both build bridges....and that's good enough for me. Right? Besides THAT, most of the people who complain about crime are REALLY just angry at minorities. Most racists wouldn't mind being 'ripped off' by white thugs, they just can't stand the thought of some dark-skinned person using THEIR lawnmower or cordless drill. Another 'racist' issue, as I see it. Everybody gets mad a MS-13, but we LOVE the Mafia...right? It's really all just racism. (Actually, MOST people love The Mafia because they're seen as 'white"..only a few hate them, in the mistaken belief that Italians are "Latinos"....pretty silly, no? )..

If you really feel this way, that in itself is an indication of just how far down this society has already come. Your attitude is very common, and would make perfect sense, in some third-world "every group for itself" balkanized society...but in a modern, multi-ethnic high-tech society like ours, held together ONLY by our common consent to BE 'held together', such an attitude would result in chaos. If your interest in your particular 'ethnic group', whether right or wrong, supersedes your interest in your nation, (and iif the same holds true for ALL of us), then very soon such a nation will no longer be a nation at all.

Ask the Yugoslavians...or the Soviets....or others, if you doubt me. Those are places which USED to be nations, but no longer are...because ethnicity was more important than the 'common good'....and everyone had 'rights', which applied ONLY to 'his' group, which conflicted with the OTHER people's rights, which applied only to THEIR group.

Last edited by macmeal; 06-02-2008 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:35 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,998,873 times
Reputation: 332
[quote=macmeal;3962411]
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

If you are sincere (and I assume you are), and the only possible opposition that you can conceive of toward illegal immigration is that people "hate Hispanics", then so be it. That's your right. It fails to address the many Hispanic-Americans that are part of our society, (many of them in my family), who are outspokenly opposed to illegal immigration. I guess it makes no impact on their lives or their income....it's just because they "hate themselves".....(I guess)....

My guess is that you yourself are making this a racial issue, in some sort of misguided attempt at "ethnic pride". That's a dangerous path to follow, and if it held true for ALL of us, would result in disaster. Our society would end up like the Balkans, where each group "sticks with its own", right or wrong, because it's 'their group'.

Your above analogy is a popular one....it's been used again and again, and will continue to be. But it's still wrong. Coming here illegally is NOT "just the same" as coming here legally. You can say that, and you may even BELIEVE that (though I suspect you'd change your mind if the illegals were from Haiti, or Pakistan, or Lithuania). But I won't argue with you....your beliefs are yours.

But if you're really consistent, and continue to maintain that "some do it legally, and some don't", and that's "all there is to it", then consistency (and intellectual honesty) would ALSO require that you admit the following...

(1) Some people enter a store, select their merchandise, pay for it, and leave. Others enter the store, put the merchandise in their pockets, and leave without paying. But they're ALL 'shoppers'. The ones who pay are just like the ones who don't. And some people don't pay because the store management has set the prices too high, not because they're thieves...Besides, most people who own stores are rich, anyway.

(2) Some guys go away to college for years, get a degree in Pharmacology, and find work as a pharmacist. Others buy cocaine and crack to sell on the street. But they're ALL people who make their income by selling drugs....and there's really no difference in them, as people....people just naturally LIKE pharmacists, because most are Asians..but HATE Drug dealers, because most are Hispanic....right? Some drugs are legal, and others aren't..but they're all drugs.

(3) Sometimes a neighbor will borrow one of your tools. Others will simply break into your garage and take them...but they're all just 'people who need a tool'..(in this case, one of YOUR tools), and the way they get them isn't important. Besides, most people who lock their garages are racists who distrust their neighbors..if they didn't, they could prove it by leaving their garages unlocked.

(4) Some people drink WAY too much, and get a designated driver to drive them home. Others drink WAY too much, and drive THEMSELVES home. But either way, there's no great difference. Even drunk drivers don't USUALLY kill other people, and all they really want to do is drive, just like you and I do. Prosecuting drunk drivers is wrong, because they aren't violent, and don't intentionally hurt anyone. Most drunk drivers are actually nice people, with just one 'bad habit'. And when drunk drivers, on rare occasions, DO kill innocent people, they're almost always sorry.

Shoppers or shoplifters.....trespassers or guests....counterfeiters or bank tellers....we're all just 'people', and we're trying to 'make it'. Some do it legally, some look for ways AROUND the 'system'....A contractor who'll build a bridge up to "code"..or a contractor who'll build a bridge with "most" of the parts, it really doesn't matter..they both work hard, and they both build bridges....and that's good enough for me. Right? Besides THAT, most of the people who complain about crime are REALLY just angry at minorities. Most racists wouldn't mind being 'ripped off' by white thugs, they just can't stand the thought of some dark-skinned person using THEIR lawnmower or cordless drill. Another 'racist' issue, as I see it. Everybody gets mad a MS-13, but we LOVE the Mafia...right? It's really all just racism. (Actually, MOST people love The Mafia because they're seen as 'white"..only a few hate them, in the mistaken belief that Italians are "Latinos"....pretty silly, no? )..

If you really feel this way, that in itself is an indication of just how far down this society has already come. Your attitude is very common, and would make perfect sense, in some third-world "every group for itself" balkanized society...but in a modern, multi-ethnic high-tech society like ours, held together ONLY by our common consent to BE 'held together', such an attitude would result in chaos. If your interest in your particular 'ethnic group', whether right or wrong, supersedes your interest in your nation, (and iif the same holds true for ALL of us), then very soon such a nation will no longer be a nation at all.

Ask the Yugoslavians...or the Soviets....or others, if you doubt me. Those are places which USED to be nations, but no longer are...because ethnicity was more important than the 'common good'....and everyone had 'rights', which applied ONLY to 'his' group, which conflicted with the OTHER people's rights, which applied only to THEIR group.
If we dont look out for ourselves, and don't speak up for ourselves, then who will?

If we don't take a pride in our own culture, who's going to give us that pride in our culture?

If Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians held the interest of "the common good" above their own, things might be a whole lot different today.

There wouldnt be such an importance placed on equality that there is today. Minorities had to fight for it! It wasnt just handed over.

This country hasn't always been too keen on "the common good" of everyone that lives here. Not too long ago, the "common good" meant for "the white man's good". Its only very recently this country has improved in race relations.




Im tired of people saying groups that have Brown pride or Chicano pride are racists. We HAVE to take pride in who we are and encourage ourselves to make it in America's mainstream so we don't stay in poverty.
If America wasn't founded on ideas like Manifest Destiny, then maybe this place would be the utopia you seem to think it is. But it was, and its not. These racial and ethnic divides go back a long time.

Its getting better and better, but everyone is not equal here yet.



And I know white people get furious when they hear the topic of race and racism brought up. But face facts. While this country is much better these days, you can't deny the past.
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Old 06-02-2008, 02:28 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
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[quote=amc760;3963251]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

If we dont look out for ourselves, and don't speak up for ourselves, then who will?

If we don't take a pride in our own culture, who's going to give us that pride in our culture?

If Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians held the interest of "the common good" above their own, things might be a whole lot different today.

There wouldnt be such an importance placed on equality that there is today. Minorities had to fight for it! It wasnt just handed over.

This country hasn't always been too keen on "the common good" of everyone that lives here. Not too long ago, the "common good" meant for "the white man's good". Its only very recently this country has improved in race relations.




Im tired of people saying groups that have Brown pride or Chicano pride are racists. We HAVE to take pride in who we are and encourage ourselves to make it in America's mainstream so we don't stay in poverty.
If America wasn't founded on ideas like Manifest Destiny, then maybe this place would be the utopia you seem to think it is. But it was, and its not. These racial and ethnic divides go back a long time.

Its getting better and better, but everyone is not equal here yet.



And I know white people get furious when they hear the topic of race and racism brought up. But face facts. While this country is much better these days, you can't deny the past.
True....nobody can deny the past. Plenty of ugliness and unfairness went on. But continuing in segregated, balkanized "ethnic pride" movements isn't solving the problems of the past as much as it's continuing them on. When you're pushing for YOUR rights...not as an individual, but as a member of some sort of poorly-defined group, what do you do when the OTHER guy steps in, and demands special consideration, not for his rights as an individual, but for HIS poorly-defined group? There's no end to this stuff, it's inherently divisive just by its nature, and the world is littered by example after example of its failure.

By your way of thinking, you, as a Mexican-American, would find your interests more closely tied in with MS-13, than with an Asian teacher, or a Black accountant, or a white carpenter. These people may be "OK", but they're not YOUR people..right? So when the Asian person is victimized by the MS-13 member, you'd HAVE to side with the "pandillero"....because, after all, he may not be a Mexican, he may not be here legally, he may be a criminal, but he's still "one of yours"....right? He's STILL a Hispanic, and so are YOU, and you're not an Asian....if the Asian has problems with that, he can go to HIS group, the other Asians. Koreans, Filipinos, Japanese...they may not have much in common, but they're STILL a 'group", and they'll look out for each other, just as you look out for your "guys"....('your guys' meaning all Hispanics, good, bad, or in between).

What a sad society...one that, unfortunately, exists today in some parts of the world. Thankfully, it doesn't exist here...YET. So far, it hasn't gotten quite that bad or 'silly'....but it certainly could, and it has, elsewhere.

Instead of "looking out for Hispanics", might I suggest you 'look out' for the interests of GOOD people...people like YOU, in their ethics and morals, rather than in their cuisine or skin color? How about looking at yourself as an American, one who sees OTHER Americans of good character and good values, as "your group"....and the BAD people, (bad blacks, bad whites, etc...yes, even the "bad" Hispanics), as "NOT your group"....that is, as an American of ANY color, you see yourself as promoting the interests of your NATION, not your race....and hopefully, "good" people of all shades will agree with you, and together we can do something about the "bad" people, regardless of what color they are.

Remember, America is still a 'pretty good deal' (if it weren't, there would be no one wanting to come here, legally or otherwise)....and America exists ONLY as a theoretical legal 'concept'. We're SUPPOSED to be keeping ourselves 'in line', not relying on some draconian Police State to do it. And the ONLY way we keep things 'going' is by having a system of laws, which WE OURSELVES agree to obey.

The whole "PC" situation has actually altered our very ability to reason and think, it seems to me. To think that a nation which has a large percentage of Hispanics among its population (10%...15%...20%?...I don't know), PLUS has upwards of 20 million illegal NON-citizens living here, too, mostly without serious danger of being prosecuted.....to think that such a nation can be accused of "hating Hispanics" is just ludicrous. "Hating" people is what Hitler did to the Jews. It's what the KKK did to Blacks. "Hating" does NOT describe what America is now "doing" to Hispanics.

Lastly, I fail to see why you can't be a PROUD Hispanic, proud of your culture, etc., and not still be a 'proud" American...part of which entails the duty to uphold the LAWS of America. We now have millions of illegal residents here, with no letup in sight. Calling for some sort of reform is not an act of "hate", unless you want it to be.

If you throw a BIG party, you have a certain number of guests you can accommodate. If more and more and more guests show up (invited or just 'friends of friends')...the food begins to run out....the house and yard become overcrowded....the police begin to 'cruise by'....and eventually you have to LOCK YOUR DOOR.....does that mean you "hate" people?. I don't think so. I think it means your house is overflowing with company, and if you don't do something about it, you could have real problems.

In conclusion, what you've said about "minorities having to fight for things" is fine.....well said, and true. But then why 'demean' yourself by trying to tie this very worthwhile point into a defense of illegal immigration? I don't get the connection. Why not tell illegals (if you're inclined to talk to them about this), "I, just like you, am Hispanic....and I find it embarrassing that you seem to be 'unable' to obey our laws. This is a 'new country'...you're not 'back home' now, and we have certain laws here. As a Hispanic, I know that these laws apply to all. That's the way it works here. You have to get permission to enter. It's not a law that's designed to victimize Hispanics, it's a law designed to protect this nation, and it applies to ALL non-citizens".

Last edited by macmeal; 06-02-2008 at 02:44 PM..
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Old 06-02-2008, 03:12 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
Reputation: 2983
[quote=amc760;3963251]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This country hasn't always been too keen on "the common good" of everyone that lives here. Not too long ago, the "common good" meant for "the white man's good". Its only very recently this country has improved in race relations.



.
If America wasn't founded on ideas like Manifest Destiny, then maybe this place would be the utopia you seem to think it is. But it was, and its not. These racial and ethnic divides go back a long time.

Its getting better and better, but everyone is not equal here yet.
.
I just had to make another couple of points. First, the "Manifest Destiny" remark. Of course, in our modern, PC world, this whole concept was pretty 'out there'. It was as politically-incorrect byTODAY'S standards as a John Wayne movie was "male chauvinist". But I really think you'll find that MOST nations in the past were pretty much 'full of themselves'. Check out the way that China--or Russia---or Argentina....or France....or Mexico....or Germany..or Japan...or almost ANY great nation felt about itself. Check out their National Anthems. You'll find that usually, their nation was "the Greatest", was "chosen by God", was "destined to rule", etc etc etc. Manifest Destiny was very normal in its time. It was no worse than most other 'destinies'.

As far as the "common good' once being the "white man's good" this, too was not QUITE that simple. At one time, to really 'make it' in America meant being an English Protestant. Those were society's 'chosen ones'. Catholics, Jews, and "other" whites often had a VERY rough time being accepted. Later on, many of these former 'victims' went on to turn against 'newer' victims of their own (and eventually, non-whites). While history in the US was ugly and tumultuous, and racism was 'par for the course', it didn't exist in a vacuum. Man's inhumanity to man is a feature of the human race, and America may be one of the better examples of how it has been minimized over the years. Many places have fewer racial problems than here....but often, it's because their 'minorities' either didn't exist, or were never allowed to protest at all.

MOST places on earth which have significant numbers of ethnic minorities in their societies ALSO have problems 'assimilating' them. Many places have no significant minorities, thus no significant 'race issues'....but does this mean these are "better" places?
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:35 PM
 
1,031 posts, read 2,024,794 times
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[quote=amc760;3963251]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

If we dont look out for ourselves, and don't speak up for ourselves, then who will?

If we don't take a pride in our own culture, who's going to give us that pride in our culture?

If Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians held the interest of "the common good" above their own, things might be a whole lot different today.

There wouldnt be such an importance placed on equality that there is today. Minorities had to fight for it! It wasnt just handed over.

This country hasn't always been too keen on "the common good" of everyone that lives here. Not too long ago, the "common good" meant for "the white man's good". Its only very recently this country has improved in race relations.




Im tired of people saying groups that have Brown pride or Chicano pride are racists. We HAVE to take pride in who we are and encourage ourselves to make it in America's mainstream so we don't stay in poverty.
If America wasn't founded on ideas like Manifest Destiny, then maybe this place would be the utopia you seem to think it is. But it was, and its not. These racial and ethnic divides go back a long time.

Its getting better and better, but everyone is not equal here yet.



And I know white people get furious when they hear the topic of race and racism brought up. But face facts. While this country is much better these days, you can't deny the past.
I guess the question is the relationship between pride in one's culture and assimilation into American culture. I think there is ample evidence within every ethnic group that folks can be patriotic without sacrificing their culture. You can evince pride in being American without forgetting "who you are." Because pride in being America encompasses the acknowledgment of where you come from, and ADDS to it by embracing those around you from other backgrounds and cultures, including the native (i.e. American) culture. My culture involves the national American culture, a regional culture (southern), my family's Taiwanese culture, and my friends' various ethnic cultures. I can't isolate any of these above the others because they make me who I am today. The only way to succinctly express my pride in my upbringing is to wrap them all up, faults and all, under the label of American pride.

I think some racial pride does cross the line into racism, and refusing to acknowledge this essentially denies our humanity. I have felt pressure to act and judge based on race, because I am human and are around other humans. No one is immune to these urges. We do have to be careful how we judge racial pride, not only others' pride but our own.

No one will mistake me for someone who is not proud to be Taiwanese, or Asian. In fact on this board I have spoken out about the perceptions of Asian men, and how they are skewed and my suspicions behind it (unnecessary to dwell on it here). But no one will mistake me for someone who isn't more proud to be American.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
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[quote=Kabluey;3965476]
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

I guess the question is the relationship between pride in one's culture and assimilation into American culture. I think there is ample evidence within every ethnic group that folks can be patriotic without sacrificing their culture. You can evince pride in being American without forgetting "who you are." Because pride in being America encompasses the acknowledgment of where you come from, and ADDS to it by embracing those around you from other backgrounds and cultures, including the native (i.e. American) culture. My culture involves the national American culture, a regional culture (southern), my family's Taiwanese culture, and my friends' various ethnic cultures. I can't isolate any of these above the others because they make me who I am today. The only way to succinctly express my pride in my upbringing is to wrap them all up, faults and all, under the label of American pride.

I think some racial pride does cross the line into racism, and refusing to acknowledge this essentially denies our humanity. I have felt pressure to act and judge based on race, because I am human and are around other humans. No one is immune to these urges. We do have to be careful how we judge racial pride, not only others' pride but our own.

No one will mistake me for someone who is not proud to be Taiwanese, or Asian. In fact on this board I have spoken out about the perceptions of Asian men, and how they are skewed and my suspicions behind it (unnecessary to dwell on it here). But no one will mistake me for someone who isn't more proud to be American.
Very well-put, and speaks to that VERY 'touchy' line between a sort of charming 'ethnic pride' and an eventual lapse into racism. Much the same thing can happen when 'patriotism' becomes exaggerated into xenophobia. The problem becomes just where, exactly to draw the line.

It's one thing to see a bumper sticker that says (for example) "God Bless The Irish".....or "Italian Pride".....or "Yo (corazon) Michoacan".....but go much farther, and it can get 'dicey'. Is "Brown Pride" significantly more inclusive than "white pride"? I don't see how.

When you start getting into the "Armenian Power", or "Thank God I'm French" stuff, you're ALSO implying that this should probably make ME jealous, because I am NOT French, nor am I Armenian. It's a touchy area, one almost guaranteed to cause hard feelings in at least SOME people, if not most....and it's especially troublesome in a society that is SUPPOSED to be inclusive of so many diverse groups as ours. Like the Confederate flag, which is often cited as being 'divisive' for what it represents, these 'ethnic pride' slogans almost ALWAYS have a 'hidden message', which says, in one way or another, "I'm part of the 'In Crowd'....(and you, unfortunately, are NOT)"

A very LITTLE ethnic pride goes a LONG way. Beyond that, it can get problematic. When "ethnic pride" dictates that Americans begin advocating the breaking of laws in order to support their fellow 'ethnics', it's possible that ethnic pride has gone too far.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post

I guess the question is the relationship between pride in one's culture and assimilation into American culture. I think there is ample evidence within every ethnic group that folks can be patriotic without sacrificing their culture. You can evince pride in being American without forgetting "who you are." Because pride in being America encompasses the acknowledgment of where you come from, and ADDS to it by embracing those around you from other backgrounds and cultures, including the native (i.e. American) culture. My culture involves the national American culture, a regional culture (southern), my family's Taiwanese culture, and my friends' various ethnic cultures. I can't isolate any of these above the others because they make me who I am today. The only way to succinctly express my pride in my upbringing is to wrap them all up, faults and all, under the label of American pride.

I think some racial pride does cross the line into racism, and refusing to acknowledge this essentially denies our humanity. I have felt pressure to act and judge based on race, because I am human and are around other humans. No one is immune to these urges. We do have to be careful how we judge racial pride, not only others' pride but our own.

No one will mistake me for someone who is not proud to be Taiwanese, or Asian. In fact on this board I have spoken out about the perceptions of Asian men, and how they are skewed and my suspicions behind it (unnecessary to dwell on it here). But no one will mistake me for someone who isn't more proud to be American.
Sir:

You are an American; pure and simple

BTW: Google 'Cheng and Eng Bunker'; their story may especially be of interest to you, due to both your (probable) ethnic Chinese heritage as well as a being a Southerner.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:25 PM
 
1,031 posts, read 2,024,794 times
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[quote=macmeal;3965769]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post

Very well-put, and speaks to that VERY 'touchy' line between a sort of charming 'ethnic pride' and an eventual lapse into racism. Much the same thing can happen when 'patriotism' becomes exaggerated into xenophobia. The problem becomes just where, exactly to draw the line.

It's one thing to see a bumper sticker that says (for example) "God Bless The Irish".....or "Italian Pride".....or "Yo (corazon) Michoacan".....but go much farther, and it can get 'dicey'. Is "Brown Pride" significantly more inclusive than "white pride"? I don't see how.

When you start getting into the "Armenian Power", or "Thank God I'm French" stuff, you're ALSO implying that this should probably make ME jealous, because I am NOT French, nor am I Armenian. It's a touchy area, one almost guaranteed to cause hard feelings in at least SOME people, if not most....and it's especially troublesome in a society that is SUPPOSED to be inclusive of so many diverse groups as ours. Like the Confederate flag, which is often cited as being 'divisive' for what it represents, these 'ethnic pride' slogans almost ALWAYS have a 'hidden message', which says, in one way or another, "I'm part of the 'In Crowd'....(and you, unfortunately, are NOT)"

A very LITTLE ethnic pride goes a LONG way. Beyond that, it can get problematic. When "ethnic pride" dictates that Americans begin advocating the breaking of laws in order to support their fellow 'ethnics', it's possible that ethnic pride has gone too far.
I think the key is in discerning the intent to exclude anyone. On St. Patty's day, everyone's Irish. Similarly for Cinco de Mayo. But if I were to seriously assert an "Asian Invasion," perhaps that crosses the line, it insinuates an exclusion if not a subjugation. So, yeah, I agree with you, is there an intent to draw a line in the sand dividing Americans between "us" and "them" along ethnic lines? I think if so, then it's more racist than prideful.
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