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View Poll Results: Does it irritate you when people call you/others "anti immigrant"?
Not at all 17 32.69%
Somewhat 4 7.69%
Yes 31 59.62%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-03-2008, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What are you talking about?

You guys have beef with Chicanos claiming to be indigenous to the continent, then you say our culture is a white supremacist one?

You mock us for saying "brown pride", then say we are basically offshoot Europeans, and call us white supremacists?

Make up your mind.

I have ran into very very very very few Mexican-Americans who tried to say they were "Spanish". This usually causes other Mexican-Americans to snicker behind their back.

Most Mexican-Americans are so proud of indigenous culture, that they like to claim to be descendants of the Aztec and Maya, when many of us are most likely of some other Amerindian tribe.

Im sure white supremacists exist in Mexico, but those are usually the descendants of the Spanish Colonists..a very small number that have not heavily mixed with Amerindian blood.

To say our culture is "heavily white supremacists" is FALSE. You assume this because the elite in Mexico are of mostly European descent(very few countries in the world where the elite hasnt been mostly European at some point), and by the depiction of beauty in the Mexican media. The whole world has been brainwashed to see White as the picture of beauty. Mexico isn't any different.
The below quote was sent to me by a Mexican friend of mine (who; BTW, is 100% White but born/raised SOB along with both of his parents, the grands came from Eastern Europe 75 years ago):

Quote:
There is an inferiority complex dating back to the days of the conquest and subsequen Spanish colonization. The Spaniards themselves refered to the Arabs as Moors, "Moros" in Spanish which means "dark-skinned". A black eye in one's face in Spanish Spanish is "ojo moro", in Mexican Spanish is "ojo morado" or "violet eye".

The Spanish conquest in Mexico was successfull on three counts: first, the locals had never seen horses before and thought that horse and rider were one being, and the second, the Aztecs managed to be hated by everyone else, as they subjugated a number of other nations under them to build their empire. These nations allied with the Spaniards to topple the Aztecs, but alas, the Spaniards' plans were different. Third, the Spaniards brought with them smallpox, which decimated the local population during an epidemic that was second to none in Europe; millions perished.

The first "mestizos" were born when Hernán Cortés himself had a child with Malintzin or "La Malinche", his interpreter. A couple of Spanish sailors that came with Columbus were stranded in the Yucatán peninsula when Cortés came to Mexico, and they had already had children with Mayan women. Cortés' child was the first kid from a European father and an Aztec mother. Soon a number of "mestizo" kids were born and thus the Mexican nation was born with them. The Spaniards treated them badly, as "hijos de la chingada" which is the worst offense you can make to a Mexican, because "la chingada" means "the raped woman", which indeed was the destiny of many Native Mexican women during the three centuries that the Spanish colonial period lasted.

Mexican society was divided in castes which determined the socio-political and economic level of the people: first, there were the Europeans, mostly Spaniards, who had all the wealth, government positions (conveniently far from Spain, they could loot the country at will) and were the entrepreneurs and landowners. Some among them were nobles too and were styled counts or dukes or barons. Then came the "criollos" or creoles, the children of European fathers and mothers born in Mexico. Then came the "mestizos", as explained above, and a host of others like the "mulatos", children of a white father and a black mother, as we did have slaves from Africa too, but not to the extent of the USA.

The "mestizos" were way below in the food chain, most were children of single mothers and were not recognized by their fathers. Last names or family names had to be given when the kids were baptized, and since the mothers didn't know the last name of the fathers of their children, they used his first name as the kids' last name. The "mestizos" were the children of the powerful, exploiting European father and the subjugated, powerless, raped Mexican mother.

This is how the Mexican inferiority complex was born, and this is why the country is white supremacist, as another poster has adequately described it.

For some reason, it looks like the dark skin color of the Native Mexicans tends to prevail for generations, and along with it, the inferiority complex of people here.

Swept aside from mainstream Mexico since the 1500s, rural communities in the country still count among their population a vast majority of Native Mexicans and "mestizos". On top of Spanish, 57 local languages are spoken in the country. In this day and age some people still don't speak Spanish. As a country we have failed to incorporate them into our civilization (for good or bad) and they are the ones that emigrate in search of better opportunities. Commiting a crime is the last thing they intend to do, so while in your legal system they are criminals, some won't understand that. In some parts of the country, Mexico has had to make exceptions because rule of law won't apply there, instead, it's "uses and customs" and our government must abide or else. Such is the case of Chiapas.

I hope I have explained the roots of the problem that your country and mine are facing.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:18 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
The below quote was sent to me by a Mexican friend of mine (who; BTW, is 100% White but born/raised SOB along with both of his parents, the grands came from Eastern Europe 75 years ago):

What point were you making?
As far as I can understand, a white dude in Mexico is talking about how the only reason MOST of us have Spanish in us, is because the Europeans came and raped our people. Thats why many of us associate more with being Mexican or descendants of the natives, than Spanish. Even many of us who have lighter skin. Because most of us don't want to be associated with the people who raped our women on a large scale when they came here uninvited and made the people who welcomed them slaves. Now thats a foreign invasion for you.
If anything, I think a lot of the actual Europeans in Mexico are the ones who are self-conscious. I would think that being proud Europeans, or Spaniards would feel a little bit of a "inferiority complex" living in what is seen around the world as a "brown" county like Mexico. If anyone's a white supremacists in Mexico, its probably the full Europeans.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:37 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What point were you making?
As far as I can understand, a white dude in Mexico is talking about how the only reason MOST of us have Spanish in us, is because the Europeans came and raped our people. Thats why many of us associate more with being Mexican or descendants of the natives, than Spanish. Even many of us who have lighter skin. Because most of us don't want to be associated with the people who raped our women on a large scale when they came here uninvited and made the people who welcomed them slaves. Now thats a foreign invasion for you.
If anything, I think a lot of the actual Europeans in Mexico are the ones who are self-conscious. They are extremely proud of their white culture, and it must be a little annoying that Mexico is widely viewed as a "Brown country". They are the white supremacists in Mexico. Don't call all Mexicans white supremacists..that would be the white ones.
Firstly, this is all more-or-less true, and yes, there's great ambivalence in the Mexican culture, and how today's Mexican person looks at himself, and his culture..this has been written about at length.

But tragedy has been the lot of MOST people. Why spend your time going over what your OWN ancestors did to each other? ALL of us could dwell on such things...but the past is gone. You're here now, and your life will be what you make it.

The thing that annoys MOST gringos, though, I think is this..if you INSIST upon dwelling on past injustices, and the way the Europeans "devastated" the Mexican population, why not tell the ruling Mexicans? Why not express your outrage at THEM? Why come up here and take out your anger on the US? At least here, the whole idea was that theoretically, everyone should have a chance....and as bad as things are here, they MUST be better than in Mexico....people 'vote with their feet', after all.

That's what mystifies the local gringos (AND the assimilated Hispanics here, too)..the fact that illegals are "driven" to come here, by the poverty, unfairness, and lack of opportunity at home, and the way the rich keep them in a 'stranglehold"...then they get up here, and proceed to get angry at the USA.....it makes no sense.

If someone rapes your wife, you don't go next door and beat up your neighbor...you beat up the rapist !!........sheeesh

BTW..I've known MANY illegals, and I have YET to meet one who felt he was "forced" to come here by US. Nor have I ever met one who "refused" to learn English...I've seen many people having difficulty with the language, but most who I've known are eager to learn it..

And I've known MANY dozens of Hispanic-Americans, and have never met ONE who wishes he was "back in Mexico", or who wants this to become "part of Mexico". I DO know one guy who gives "MEChA" speeches, but even his family laughs at him..(and I refuse to take him seriously...though I DO have one of his posters rolled up somewhere...big sombrero and the whole bit) The man has a white "trophy" wife, lives in a gated community, and has several college degrees...some "peon", right?
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:38 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,168,230 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What point were you making?
As far as I can understand, a white dude in Mexico is talking about how the only reason MOST of us have Spanish in us, is because the Europeans came and raped our people. Thats why many of us associate more with being Mexican or descendants of the natives, than Spanish. Even many of us who have lighter skin. Because most of us don't want to be associated with the people who raped our women on a large scale when they came here uninvited and made the people who welcomed them slaves. Now thats a foreign invasion for you.
If anything, I think a lot of the actual Europeans in Mexico are the ones who are self-conscious. I would think that being proud Europeans, or Spaniards would feel a little bit of a "inferiority complex" living in what is seen around the world as a "brown" county like Mexico. If anyone's a white supremacists in Mexico, its probably the full Europeans.
Bingo! That's exactly it! Those silly Euro-descended self-conscious twits in Mexico who hold all the money, power, and political influence are all boo-hooing right now about their inferiority complex as they are wiping away the tears with hundred dollar bills and having their man-servants fan them with palm fronds on the veranda of one of their many haciendas.

I can just see it .....
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
What point were you making?
As far as I can understand, a white dude in Mexico is talking about how the only reason MOST of us have Spanish in us, is because the Europeans came and raped our people. Thats why many of us associate more with being Mexican or descendants of the natives, than Spanish. Even many of us who have lighter skin. Because most of us don't want to be associated with the people who raped our women on a large scale when they came here uninvited and made the people who welcomed them slaves. Now thats a foreign invasion for you.
If anything, I think a lot of the actual Europeans in Mexico are the ones who are self-conscious. I would think that being proud Europeans, or Spaniards would feel a little bit of a "inferiority complex" living in what is seen around the world as a "brown" county like Mexico. If anyone's a white supremacists in Mexico, its probably the full Europeans.
My point is if Mexico is so damn great: why are so many of its citizens here in the USA---------illegally?

Face it: Mx is basically a dump compared to the USA or Spain and its people need to take responsibility for themselves (and are doing so as in curtailing their reproduction, etc admittedly).
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:14 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,996,951 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
My point is if Mexico is so damn great: why are so many of its citizens here in the USA---------illegally?

Face it: Mx is basically a dump compared to the USA or Spain and its people need to take responsibility for themselves (and are doing so as in curtailing their reproduction, etc admittedly).
AZBear and Macmeal, what we were discussing was the claim that Mexican are "white supremacists". Azbear, you went pretty deep into how Mexicans perceive themselves. Please don't cop out with that comment, you know what we're talking is seperate than people coming here illegally.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:19 PM
 
1,818 posts, read 2,735,161 times
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It might bother some that are anti immigrant. It does not bother me at all because I'm not Anti- legal or illegal, makes life so much less stressful
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:30 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
AZBear and Macmeal, what we were discussing was the claim that Mexican are "white supremacists". Azbear, you went pretty deep into how Mexicans perceive themselves. Please don't cop out with that comment, you know what we're talking is seperate than people coming here illegally.
The racism among Mexicans (and Mexican Americans) is persistent, albeit not quite the same 'style' as the racism in the US....NOR was it enacted into law, as it was in the Southern US.

I do know one LARGE (and I mean LARGE) family in this area who throws big parties, and often one party (for example, a Christmas party or similar) will be mostly "light" guests, followed the next day by one for mostly "dark" guests....ALL of them members of the same family (!), plus spouses.. It's no secret, causes some hard feelings, but it's been going on for years....(I've been invited to BOTH, according to how things are going at the moment, and generally the 'dark' parties are more fun )

I DO remember several decades ago in Mexico, it was quite common to see ads requesting..(for example) a receptionist or 'office girl", and in addition to typing skills, etc, it would specify 'good appearance'..which was GENERALLY understood to mean "not TOO Indian-looking, please"..I'm not sure whether this still goes on or not..

Racism is racism..it occurs in MOST societies around the world, often in different forms, but it's there. The thing that makes the US stand out is a willingness to discuss it...(and BOY do we discuss it). Most societies won't discuss their racism, refuse to admit it exists....or honestly don't SEE it (as if to say their race is 'simply the best..period')
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:36 PM
 
4 posts, read 5,899 times
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Default Does it irritate you when people call you/others "anti immigrant"?

Yes, it irritates the heck out of me. First of all I am a legal Immigrant, and now a citizen of this great country the US.
I also agree that what is in the past leave in the past. We are here in this country now and need to speak the language and live by its laws. (However I have been known to drive a little over the speed limit now and then) LOL
About the past, both of my parents are concentration camp survivors. My Mother is from Russia. At 13 years old put on a cattle train by Nazis in the middle of Winter and shipped to Germany. More Russians were murdered then all the Jews in World War II. Where did we go on our vacations? To France and Germany, on our bikes. Did we speak Dutch in those countries, No we had the respect to speak their language in their countries.
No, I am not anti immigrant however I am 100% anti illegal aliens.
Many have the gall to say we as Americans do not do the jobs that they do. That is a lot of bull pucky! I clean homes and proud of it! Americans have been doing their own work since we came over with the Mayflower!
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakestevens View Post
Yes, it irritates the heck out of me. First of all I am a legal Immigrant, and now a citizen of this great country the US.
I also agree that what is in the past leave in the past. We are here in this country now and need to speak the language and live by its laws. (However I have been known to drive a little over the speed limit now and then) LOL
About the past, both of my parents are concentration camp survivors. My Mother is from Russia. At 13 years old put on a cattle train by Nazis in the middle of Winter and shipped to Germany. More Russians were murdered then all the Jews in World War II. Where did we go on our vacations? To France and Germany, on our bikes. Did we speak Dutch in those countries, No we had the respect to speak their language in their countries.
No, I am not anti immigrant however I am 100% anti illegal aliens.
Many have the gall to say we as Americans do not do the jobs that they do. That is a lot of bull pucky! I clean homes and proud of it! Americans have been doing their own work since we came over with the Mayflower!
This is a most disturbing post, since recently on this forum we were informed that "Legal immigrants have nothing against illegals", or words to that effect. It's pretty upsetting, because we've been assured that ALL you guys (legal and illegal) are really 'just the same'. Are you now telling us that this is NOT THE CASE?......hmmmmm This changes everything. Pardon me while I collect my thoughts....
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