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Old 06-03-2008, 03:45 PM
 
1,818 posts, read 2,734,256 times
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Thanks for the post Blacknight, the NY times did a great piece showing the ugly side of immigration.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyone View Post
Thanks for the post Blacknight, the NY times did a great piece showing the ugly side of immigration.
Good observation. Immigration certainly DOES have its ugly side these days...
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:49 PM
 
Location: um....guess
10,479 posts, read 13,506,882 times
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Hmm, well unlike I'm sure some of you, I actually read the piece. What exactly is the problem you have with it? Oh right, they don't agree w/your paranoia & insanity, bad me.
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,397,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karfar View Post
Hmm, well unlike I'm sure some of you, I actually read the piece. What exactly is the problem you have with it? Oh right, they don't agree w/your paranoia & insanity, bad me.
Well, I read it. It sure smacks of Ruben Navarette. It made blood shoot out of my eyes a few times. The only thing that made sense was that it was pointed out that in the dog and pony for show raids none of the employers of illegals has been charged with employing illegals. In actuality, ICE informs an employer a week or so before the raid so that the employers can "clean up" a little. Like I said, a dog and pony show raid by the lil bush admin so the sheeple think that lil bush is doing something about illegal immigration. POINT. Mandatory e-verification of the legal status of an employee would have forced that employer to either not hire those illegals which they would have been required to find out the legal status of, or, when they found out that the employees were not legal but hired them anyway, they would be screwed and subject to massive fines and/or loss of the business license, with no recourse.

Quote:
This is not about forcing people to go home and come back the right way.
No, it's about forcing people to go home and come back the right way, but only if they are eligible. Our immigration laws are supposed to be what is good for American, not what is good for prospective immigrants. If prospective immigrants don't qualify for citizenship, too bad.
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguer View Post
Well, I read it. It sure smacks of Ruben Navarette. It made blood shoot out of my eyes a few times. The only thing that made sense was that it was pointed out that in the dog and pony for show raids none of the employers of illegals has been charged with employing illegals. In actuality, ICE informs an employer a week or so before the raid so that the employers can "clean up" a little. Like I said, a dog and pony show raid by the lil bush admin so the sheeple think that lil bush is doing something about illegal immigration. POINT. Mandatory e-verification of the legal status of an employee would have forced that employer to either not hire those illegals which they would have been required to find out the legal status of, or, when they found out that the employees were not legal but hired them anyway, they would be screwed and subject to massive fines and/or loss of the business license, with no recourse.

No, it's about forcing people to go home and come back the right way, but only if they are eligible. Our immigration laws are supposed to be what is good for American, not what is good for prospective immigrants. If prospective immigrants don't qualify for citizenship, too bad.
That was concise...
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:01 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyone View Post
Thanks for the post Blacknight, the NY times did a great piece showing the ugly side of immigration.
The New York Times didn't do a piece on immigration. Are you familiar with the Op/Ed section of the newspaper? See, that is not journalism. It is someones opinion that may or may not be backed up by sources. In this case, there were no sources cited nor any facts verified ---- just some unnamed persons opinion.
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Northern VA (for now)
23,001 posts, read 31,949,672 times
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The NY times is just like my Washington Post, a pro-illegal newspaper run by bleeding hearts.
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:57 AM
 
1,031 posts, read 2,023,762 times
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Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
No.

Citizenship is not an entitlement. Furthermore the incendiary claim that "A nation of immigrants is holding another nation of immigrants in bondage" is irresponsible. First, holding someone in bondage insinuates you don't want them to leave and the bondaged wants to leave. That is not true here. Therefore, logically, the claim is illegitimate. If there are those in this country who want labor, they should seek it from the lawful pool of unemployed. A better analogy would draw comparisons to trespassing. Similar irresponsible claims could be made regarding the imprisoned. "A nation of citizens is holding another nation of citizens in bondage." The overarching insinuation is that the writer recognizes no value in abiding by rules, and no value in what it means to earn citizenship. To earn citizenship is to earn the protection of a sovereign's laws. Sovereigns distinguish between citizens and non-citizens with the rights they convey each. Sovereigns do not convey rights to undocumented or overstayed visa-holders the same as legal citizens. IT IS INHUMANE FOR ANY SOVEREIGN TO GIVE THE UNDOCUMENTED THE SAME RIGHTS THEY GIVE THEIR OWN CITIZENS, OR LAWFUL VISITORS. A nation's #1 priority has to be their own citizens -- protection of their rights, protection of the value of their citizenship. That said, certain, minimal standards of protection should be given any lawful visitor. And I would recognize that standards of treatment should be ensured for the undocumented, on their way to being fined and either deported or sent to the end of the line.

Nothing about the undocumented earns them better treatment or even equal treatment to the legal aspirant to citizenship. If we choose to give them any treatment, it is a courtesy because of our humanity. However, this is a world of limited resources and we have priorities. Hopefully those priorities should never collide to force us into difficult choices. But, this is not an idealized world. This is the real world. And difficult choices have to be made. Laws exist requiring emergency care regardless of citizenship status. Police have to respect the rights of victims regardless of citizenship. Murder is not legal if the victim is undocumented. These are rules and policies already in place as a result of our recognition of these interests. If they are violated, it is the fault of the rule-breakers, those who know there are rules and laws in place and seek to subvert them. Sound familiar? Whether we're talking enforcement of policies that protect all visitors, or talking enforcement of policies regulating immigration, the responsible thing is to enforce those policies, and we shouldn't choose one over the other. There have to be consequences to rule-breaking, and I find the article incredibly ironic. Either the writer is ignorant as to the rules and policies in existence to protect all visitors regardless of nationality or legal status, or he seeks enforcement of one set of rules, but he neither acknowledges the breaking nor the need to enforce another set of rules. How "convenient."

Quote from the article: "This is not about forcing people to go home and come back the right way. Ellis Island is closed. Legal paths are clogged or do not exist. Some backlogs are so long that they are measured in decades or generations." This is not an excuse for cutting in line in front of those who wait lawfully. There are millions of people who are from impoverished backgrounds who don't use the "well it's inconvenient for me to wait, so I have a right to cut in line in front of this guy here" excuse.

The humane thing is not to give the gold medal to Marion Jones. The humane thing is not to award first place to the runner who cuts across the infield during a 440. There needs to be a basic recognition of the value of citizenship, the necessity of abiding by rules, as well as basic notions of humanity. Humanity does not equal conveying equal rights of citizenship to those who haven't earned it.

Last edited by Kabluey; 06-05-2008 at 04:30 AM..
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Kabluey:

Your treatise is well thought out and truthful.

Remember that when dealing with many pro illegal immigrant fans; they have the emotional maturity of 14 YO's------they want the goodies now instead of playing it by the rules.

As I, macmeal and a few others have stated in the past: one of the biggest problems of illegals is once here, they usually have little respect for other laws/rules of First World society-------translation, they are trouble.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
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Well I have first hand experience with the immigration system. My wife is a legal immigrant.
It is at times tedious. It is steeped in redundant paper work. It is at times frustrating. It is if compared to most systems used by other nations more than fair. But that would be a measure for those who care about doing things legally. Those who actually respect the nations laws. I am sure if you ask your average car jacker they will say it was fair for them to jack that mercedes. The owner was obviously rich and could afford the deductable on their insurance. Criminals tend to think a like. Those who worry more about a criminals rights then the victims also tend to justify things that can not be justified. Johnny is a good boy. Yes he burned the neighbors garage down. But its not his fault the neighbor stored jugs of gas in the garage. The neighbor should have locked them up.
Illegal supporters are no different.
1. If employers didn't hire them.....
2. If we gave them amnesty......
3.If the system were easier....
4. If they weren't so desperate....
5. My all time favorite? They only do jobs americans won't....
My rebuttals
1. Employers should be fined or sent to prisons. Same with land lords who knowingly rent to illegals.
2. We tried amnesty and it made the problem worse.
3. The system is what it is and not at all impossible to use. It requires a measure of patience.
4. The fact they are desperate is not our fault, nor our concern. They can as they have done here unite and protest in their homeland to seek change.
5. No they do work cheaper than americans will work for. They have an advantage. They don't pay taxes,they don't pay insurances and as often as not have multiple families living in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment.
In short illegals like any criminal are a burden upon society. A burden which should be agressively pursued and eliminated.
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