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Old 06-05-2008, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,658,378 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Well I have first hand experience with the immigration system. My wife is a legal immigrant.
It is at times tedious. It is steeped in redundant paper work. It is at times frustrating. It is if compared to most systems used by other nations more than fair. But that would be a measure for those who care about doing things legally. Those who actually respect the nations laws. I am sure if you ask your average car jacker they will say it was fair for them to jack that mercedes. The owner was obviously rich and could afford the deductable on their insurance. Criminals tend to think a like. Those who worry more about a criminals rights then the victims also tend to justify things that can not be justified. Johnny is a good boy. Yes he burned the neighbors garage down. But its not his fault the neighbor stored jugs of gas in the garage. The neighbor should have locked them up.
Illegal supporters are no different.
1. If employers didn't hire them.....
2. If we gave them amnesty......
3.If the system were easier....
4. If they weren't so desperate....
5. My all time favorite? They only do jobs americans won't....
My rebuttals
1. Employers should be fined or sent to prisons. Same with land lords who knowingly rent to illegals.
2. We tried amnesty and it made the problem worse.
3. The system is what it is and not at all impossible to use. It requires a measure of patience.
4. The fact they are desperate is not our fault, nor our concern. They can as they have done here unite and protest in their homeland to seek change.
5. No they do work cheaper than americans will work for. They have an advantage. They don't pay taxes,they don't pay insurances and as often as not have multiple families living in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment.
In short illegals like any criminal are a burden upon society. A burden which should be agressively pursued and eliminated.
Thank you; tinman01.

A very clear and concise post
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:34 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,628,336 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
No.

Citizenship is not an entitlement. Furthermore the incendiary claim that "A nation of immigrants is holding another nation of immigrants in bondage" is irresponsible. First, holding someone in bondage insinuates you don't want them to leave and the bondaged wants to leave. That is not true here. Therefore, logically, the claim is illegitimate. If there are those in this country who want labor, they should seek it from the lawful pool of unemployed. A better analogy would draw comparisons to trespassing. Similar irresponsible claims could be made regarding the imprisoned. "A nation of citizens is holding another nation of citizens in bondage." The overarching insinuation is that the writer recognizes no value in abiding by rules, and no value in what it means to earn citizenship. To earn citizenship is to earn the protection of a sovereign's laws. Sovereigns distinguish between citizens and non-citizens with the rights they convey each. Sovereigns do not convey rights to undocumented or overstayed visa-holders the same as legal citizens. IT IS INHUMANE FOR ANY SOVEREIGN TO GIVE THE UNDOCUMENTED THE SAME RIGHTS THEY GIVE THEIR OWN CITIZENS, OR LAWFUL VISITORS. A nation's #1 priority has to be their own citizens -- protection of their rights, protection of the value of their citizenship. That said, certain, minimal standards of protection should be given any lawful visitor. And I would recognize that standards of treatment should be ensured for the undocumented, on their way to being fined and either deported or sent to the end of the line.

Nothing about the undocumented earns them better treatment or even equal treatment to the legal aspirant to citizenship. If we choose to give them any treatment, it is a courtesy because of our humanity. However, this is a world of limited resources and we have priorities. Hopefully those priorities should never collide to force us into difficult choices. But, this is not an idealized world. This is the real world. And difficult choices have to be made. Laws exist requiring emergency care regardless of citizenship status. Police have to respect the rights of victims regardless of citizenship. Murder is not legal if the victim is undocumented. These are rules and policies already in place as a result of our recognition of these interests. If they are violated, it is the fault of the rule-breakers, those who know there are rules and laws in place and seek to subvert them. Sound familiar? Whether we're talking enforcement of policies that protect all visitors, or talking enforcement of policies regulating immigration, the responsible thing is to enforce those policies, and we shouldn't choose one over the other. There have to be consequences to rule-breaking, and I find the article incredibly ironic. Either the writer is ignorant as to the rules and policies in existence to protect all visitors regardless of nationality or legal status, or he seeks enforcement of one set of rules, but he neither acknowledges the breaking nor the need to enforce another set of rules. How "convenient."

Quote from the article: "This is not about forcing people to go home and come back the right way. Ellis Island is closed. Legal paths are clogged or do not exist. Some backlogs are so long that they are measured in decades or generations." This is not an excuse for cutting in line in front of those who wait lawfully. There are millions of people who are from impoverished backgrounds who don't use the "well it's inconvenient for me to wait, so I have a right to cut in line in front of this guy here" excuse.

The humane thing is not to give the gold medal to Marion Jones. The humane thing is not to award first place to the runner who cuts across the infield during a 440. There needs to be a basic recognition of the value of citizenship, the necessity of abiding by rules, as well as basic notions of humanity. Humanity does not equal conveying equal rights of citizenship to those who haven't earned it.
Once more, another entry in a monotonous, ongoing litany of common sense, logic, and reasoned thinking. Nothing colorful here, nothing to get "angry" at..just plain truth. I was hoping for a little more controversy.

Thanks again, Kabluey....
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,828,771 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
No.

Citizenship is not an entitlement. Furthermore the incendiary claim that "A nation of immigrants is holding another nation of immigrants in bondage" is irresponsible. First, holding someone in bondage insinuates you don't want them to leave and the bondaged wants to leave. That is not true here. Therefore, logically, the claim is illegitimate. If there are those in this country who want labor, they should seek it from the lawful pool of unemployed. A better analogy would draw comparisons to trespassing. Similar irresponsible claims could be made regarding the imprisoned. "A nation of citizens is holding another nation of citizens in bondage." The overarching insinuation is that the writer recognizes no value in abiding by rules, and no value in what it means to earn citizenship. To earn citizenship is to earn the protection of a sovereign's laws. Sovereigns distinguish between citizens and non-citizens with the rights they convey each. Sovereigns do not convey rights to undocumented or overstayed visa-holders the same as legal citizens. IT IS INHUMANE FOR ANY SOVEREIGN TO GIVE THE UNDOCUMENTED THE SAME RIGHTS THEY GIVE THEIR OWN CITIZENS, OR LAWFUL VISITORS. A nation's #1 priority has to be their own citizens -- protection of their rights, protection of the value of their citizenship. That said, certain, minimal standards of protection should be given any lawful visitor. And I would recognize that standards of treatment should be ensured for the undocumented, on their way to being fined and either deported or sent to the end of the line.

Nothing about the undocumented earns them better treatment or even equal treatment to the legal aspirant to citizenship. If we choose to give them any treatment, it is a courtesy because of our humanity. However, this is a world of limited resources and we have priorities. Hopefully those priorities should never collide to force us into difficult choices. But, this is not an idealized world. This is the real world. And difficult choices have to be made. Laws exist requiring emergency care regardless of citizenship status. Police have to respect the rights of victims regardless of citizenship. Murder is not legal if the victim is undocumented. These are rules and policies already in place as a result of our recognition of these interests. If they are violated, it is the fault of the rule-breakers, those who know there are rules and laws in place and seek to subvert them. Sound familiar? Whether we're talking enforcement of policies that protect all visitors, or talking enforcement of policies regulating immigration, the responsible thing is to enforce those policies, and we shouldn't choose one over the other. There have to be consequences to rule-breaking, and I find the article incredibly ironic. Either the writer is ignorant as to the rules and policies in existence to protect all visitors regardless of nationality or legal status, or he seeks enforcement of one set of rules, but he neither acknowledges the breaking nor the need to enforce another set of rules. How "convenient."

Quote from the article: "This is not about forcing people to go home and come back the right way. Ellis Island is closed. Legal paths are clogged or do not exist. Some backlogs are so long that they are measured in decades or generations." This is not an excuse for cutting in line in front of those who wait lawfully. There are millions of people who are from impoverished backgrounds who don't use the "well it's inconvenient for me to wait, so I have a right to cut in line in front of this guy here" excuse.

The humane thing is not to give the gold medal to Marion Jones. The humane thing is not to award first place to the runner who cuts across the infield during a 440. There needs to be a basic recognition of the value of citizenship, the necessity of abiding by rules, as well as basic notions of humanity. Humanity does not equal conveying equal rights of citizenship to those who haven't earned it.
Excellent post! Sadly, such logic eludes most pro-illegals; most of whom suffer from a legal/illegal distinction deficiency -- or at least feign such in an attempt to justify their endorsement of lawlessness.

To even insinuate “bondage” is beyond ludicrous.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,398,980 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
No.

Citizenship is not an entitlement. Furthermore the incendiary claim that "A nation of immigrants is holding another nation of immigrants in bondage" is irresponsible.
Perfect! Thanks.
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:05 AM
 
1,474 posts, read 2,018,302 times
Reputation: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
I wasnt aware that a nation of immigrants existed within the boundries and confies of the fifty states.
Your logic is flawed ......again
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