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Old 06-05-2008, 09:23 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Macmeal, I'm sorry, but you have a tendecy to go into way too much rhetoric, and at the end of the day, I'm a little bit too tired to decipher the point in it all.

From what I was willing to read,
with the example of a Latino choosing between a Latino gangbanger vs. an anglo Cop?
In our community, sometimes both can be bad news. But aside from that, most of us don't like "gangbangers" ourself.

I have no beef with people who are against illegal immigration. I DO have beef with idiot vigilante groups who waste their time harassing people who are trying to work. If they are so serious about their cause, take it to the government. Force them to do something.

I refuse to join on the witchhunt on illegal immigratns. I prefer that the politicians do more to crack down on employers who so eagerly hire them. Because I know that most of these people aren't as evil as pointed out.

I am disgusted by White Americans(anglo, saxon, latin, scandinavian, whatever!) trying to strip Latinos of their identity. We are for the most part descendants of Indians. Yes, we have Spanish blood in us, and yes some of us may have light skin and resemble European features. But fact is, we are the product of colonization. The widespread RAPE of indigenous women by Spanish Conquistadors, taking everything else they wanted too. I cant speak for Mexicans, but many of us Mexican-Americans who are aware of our history our proud of the Indian blood in us.
With your guys' rationale, Malcolm X shouldn't be considered a Black leader. He was part European, dont you know? He even conked his hair to look more white. Come on .

I am also disgusted by Americans(of any race, ethnicity, creed, religion, sexual orientation, city location, blah blah blah) denying the problems of Latinos in this country, whether newly arrived, or having been here for generations.
I suspect its because we have not earned the "white guilt."
"Oh, we never enslaved you guys, so you dont have it so bad! We dont owe you Sh*t, so why should we care about your problems?".

But thats life. The Latino population WILL continue to grow and hopefully we will continue to thrive and make it in this country. Our hardwork will pay off.
OK, I suppose I DID lay on the sarcasm in this particular post.....for that, I apologize if I hurt your feelings. However sarcasm is only a 'style', not a condemnation, and I still stand by most of what I said, even if I was 'reaching' for examples.

By now, you know that I agree with moch of what you say. I disagree on how you 'interpret' what you see around you. You know by now I have been married for 39 years to a true indigenous California native, who's often been assumed to be "a Mexican". I've known the sting of racism, and the stupid, unthinking remarks often made, by all SORTS of people. I've known white racists, Hispanic racists, and black racists, and they're all offensive, and they're no fun to be around. But I try not to let my reaction to THEM set my principles. I try not to live my life just to "put the racists in their place". Some of our most endearing family 'inside' jokes are about the racists we've encountered over the years, and how "funny" most of them are. I could write you a whole CHAPTER on this....but it would get tedious.

One of your consistent points seems to be that of Latinos "losing their identity". But in a sense, that's the very definition of what the US is all about. It was started as a very "RADICAL" idea, over 200 years ago, and no one had ever tried that before. THe idea was that a diverse group of "babbling foreigners" (the tired, the hungry, the unwanted, etc) would arrive here, and proceed to do exactly what you said..to "lose their identity", and to begin to think of themselves as Americans, above any individual differences they might have.

The new "ethnic pride" movement lately (sometimes called 'multiculturalism') is, I believe, what you seem to be referring to. It hasn't been around long, it's NEVER existed anywhere in the world before, and it has already FAILED in a number of places. It's my sincere belief that if the US had thought of itself as a 'multicultural" society long ago, it would never have survived this long. It survived, SO FAR, because we don't "celebrate our differences", we minimize them, and we "celebrate our similarities". Our differences are there, and we can celebrate them in private. It's the "similarities" we need to work on. Those are what will keep us together, and that requires effort.

If we'd "celebrated our differences" in World War II, we'd have been unable to fight at all. The "English"-Americans would have sided with Great Britain, while the German-Americans sided with Hitler, and the Italian-Americans sided with Mussolini. The Japanese-Americans would have been busy sabotaging Pearl Harbor. This did NOT happen, because all these 'diverse" people stuck together, fought the war as Americans, and won it..and MOST of the world thanked them.

Today, we're told we must "be ourselves" and "hang on to our identity". This is OK up to a point, but in the end, if it's carried very far, it comes into direct conflict with a united, focused, multi-racial "First World" society. You just can't have it both ways....nor can I, nor can anyone. You can't REALLY "be" a "Mexican", and at the same time, "be" an American, and do a good job of either one, any more than you can "be" a Catholic Muslim....or a Black KKK member...or "be" an FBI agent while you're in the Mafia. You have to make choices. All of us do.

Holding onto a culture is fine to a point..beyond that, it won't work. The US is held together not by force, but by the mutual "consent" of all of us. If anyone's culture dictates that he go AGAINST that common consent, then that culture is taking him away from his duties as a citizen, and his obligation to the rest of us. When we become Americans, some of our 'former' culture we keep, but the rest we must put aside...that's the ONLY way it will work.

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, amc, but consider this....there's another group who thinks much like you do..and they're Americans, too. They're white, and they "don't necessarily want to hurt YOU" (meaning Latinos) but you must understand, they "feel like Whites, and they CARE about whites, and they want the BEST for whites", just like YOU feel about Latinos. And many of them "feel CLOSE to whites. Even the Whites in Switzerland, South Africa, Germany, or Holland"....they feel closer to THOSE whites than they do to their Latino neighbors at home, because it's a "white thing", and you probably wouldn't understand.

Nice guys, huh? In case you haven't already guessed, they're called the "KKK", and MANY of their ideas are pretty similar to yours. They "look out for their own". Now, bring in a few blacks who "look out for THEIR own", a few Asian who do likewise, and a few Arabs.....and put them all together in a free and open society.....NICE !! WONDERFUL...

Sorry, amc. I just don't go along with the "Hyper-ethnic pride" thing. I think at some point you'll see it's a mistake.

Until then, I wish you well....

 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:32 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,693,544 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
I am disgusted by White Americans(anglo, saxon, latin, scandinavian, whatever!) trying to strip Latinos of their identity. We are for the most part descendants of Indians. Yes, we have Spanish blood in us, and yes some of us may have light skin and resemble European features. But fact is, we are the product of colonization. The widespread RAPE of indigenous women by Spanish Conquistadors, taking everything else they wanted too. I cant speak for Mexicans, but many of us Mexican-Americans who are aware of our history our proud of the Indian blood in us.
Oh, you poor, poor baby.

My Viking ancestors raped, murdered, and pillaged my Scottish ancestors. My Scottish ancestors were forcibly removed from their ancestral home (the Isle of Skye) shoved onto ships and relocated to America against their will during the Clearances. My Apache ancestors were hunted nearly to extinction not only by the White man, but by the Mexicans as well, who offered Texans a $2.00 a pair bounty for the ears of my brothers and sisters.

Nearly every freakin' culture on the face of this earth is the by-product of centuries of conquest, conquering, and being conquered. Mexico is not the only country on Earth ever invaded and conquered and to tell you the truth, the fact that you are still clinging to your animosity with regards to something which happened in 1521--nearly 500 years ago--just makes me wonder why you think your culture is deserving of so much more consideration than anybody elses?

You need to do a little reading--you might begin with an oldie but goldie--Alexander the Great, whose conquests included: Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia, Judea, Gaza, Egypt, Bactria, and Mesopotamia, and extended the boundaries of the Macedonian empire as far as Punjab, India.

Or how about the Roman Empire? From approximately 44 B.C. until 476 A.D. the Roman Empire occupied Portugal, Spain, Andorra, the United Kingdom, France, Monaco, Luxembourg, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Malta, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Cyprus, Lebanon, Jordania, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Palestine.

Modern day Spain was occupied by Islamic Moors for over 800 years. Spain occupied many parts of Italy for 400 years.

Yet I wonder...where is the outcry from these cultures about the forcible rape of their ancestors, the removal from homelands, the widespread genocide of various cultures, many of whom ceased to exist with their conquerors arrival. You all b*tch and moan about all of the horrendous conditions inflicted upon "your people" even today in the U.S.--which is NOT your homeland (if you wish to continue with your premise of being indigenous Meso-american), while mine--who truly have a right to demand change in this country, continue to languish on reservations.

I'm so bloody sick of listening to people whine about conditions in this country holding them back. I know how you like to pull the race card, but it won't work with me buddy. I am Native American and Caucasian as are my children and my siblings. My nieces and nephews are Native American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Japanese. My grandbabies are Native American, African American and Caucasian. My family is single handedly working to erase racial barriers one child at a time and frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to you go on and on about how hard "your people" have it. The Irish in this country were treated even worse than you believe you have been. So were the Chinese. Did they march in the streets and complain about their treatment? NO. They worked, generation by generation, to become a part of the fabric of the country, to become productive in their new country and to eradicate any negative misconceptions people may have harbored.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's heritage. I am. But I don't shove it in anyone's face while complaining about how horrendously I and my fellow <insert ethnicity of your choice here> are treated by the rest of the country. As Mac indicated above, if everyone in this country held on to their various ancestral cultural identities rather than choosing to become a part of American culture, we would have nothing more than a piece of prime real estate with numerous fractured cultures that will never feel any commonality with their fellow countrymen. Why even bother to leave your ancestral homeland to begin with?

If you would stop wandering around with a chip on your shoulder, expecting to have it knocked off, you might find that more people in this country are for you than against you.

Last edited by Kele; 06-05-2008 at 09:49 AM..
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:40 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Oh, you poor, poor baby.
consideration than anybody elses?
.

I'm so bloody sick of listening to people whine about conditions in this country holding them back. I know how you like to pull the race card, but it won't work with me buddy. I am Native American and Caucasian as are my children and my siblings. My nieces and nephews are Native American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Japanese. My grandbabies are Native American, African American and Caucasian. My family is single handedly working to erase racial barriers one child at a time and frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to you go on and on about how hard "your people" have it. The Irish in this country were treated even worse than you believe you have been. So were the Chinese. Did they march in the streets and complain about their treatment? NO. They worked, generation by generation, to become a part of the fabric of the country, to become productive in their new country and to eradicate any negative misconceptions people may have harbored.

.
I'm not surprised at your anger. The way you describe your family, that's an AWFUL lot of mistreated, marginalized people !! No WONDER you're mad. Sounds like you guys could hold your own family protest march, right in the center of town, complete with rocks, bottles, and fists, and nobody would BLAME you !!

(Anyway, I'm gald you all decided to "tough it out" and stay here in America anyway )
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:40 AM
Status: "Make America the Great Joke Again" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Denver
9,064 posts, read 15,480,738 times
Reputation: 5288
Who cares? Everyone gets threatening calls, it should be expected when you are an Immigrant Advocacy Group.

Obama gets these sort of calls all the time, this could be our next president and people prank call his advocates with racist comments all the time.

When you stand for change, you draw fire, it should be expected.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:50 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,693,544 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm not surprised at your anger. The way you describe your family, that's an AWFUL lot of mistreated, marginalized people !! No WONDER you're mad. Sounds like you guys could hold your own family protest march, right in the center of town, complete with rocks, bottles, and fists, and nobody would BLAME you !!

(Anyway, I'm glad you all decided to "tough it out" and stay here in America anyway )
Gee, thanks Mac!
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Oh, you poor, poor baby.
Yet I wonder...where is the outcry from these cultures about the forcible rape of their ancestors, the removal from homelands, the widespread genocide of various cultures, many of whom ceased to exist with the occupation of their conquerors arrival. .
Seriously, this was an EXCELLENT post, (which will probably go "right over the heads" of many of us). Too much logic there for everyday consumption, but a classic in its own right.

As for the above quote, "where is the outcry"?...The answer of course, is that there IS none. These places you mentioned (like 80% of the world) simply don't have the concept of "white, protestant guilt", and therefore, the 'mechanisms' just aren't in place to even BEGIN to feel any guilt over the past. That's pretty much an exclusive feature of our modern culture, one totally alien to most others. Past atrocities are a dime-a-dozen...that's simply the 'human condition'. Acknowledging these transgressions, admitting them, feeling 'bad' about them, and apologizing and attempting to atone for them, on the other hand, are EXCEEDINGLY rare qualities. It's not that most cultures aren't acutely AWARE of the 'sins of the past', it's just that they're aware of OURS, rather than THEIRS.

So THAT, Kele, is where the "outcry" is.....it's not ANYWHERE, because there IS none. Good question, though.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:59 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
Who cares? Everyone gets threatening calls, it should be expected when you are an Immigrant Advocacy Group.

Obama gets these sort of calls all the time, this could be our next president and people prank call his advocates with racist comments all the time.

When you stand for change, you draw fire, it should be expected.
Agreed. Anyone making ANY sort of public "stand" on ANY subject is going to get unwanted attention from the "fringes"..phone calls, etc. Belive it or not, even the Post Office where my wife worked for years had to be evacuated several times a year. Why?...bomb threats, of course. Why would ANYONE want to bomb a Post Office?....hmmm....I don't know. How much time do you have? This could take a while.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 02:43 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,999,351 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Oh, you poor, poor baby.

My Viking ancestors raped, murdered, and pillaged my Scottish ancestors. My Scottish ancestors were forcibly removed from their ancestral home (the Isle of Skye) shoved onto ships and relocated to America against their will during the Clearances. My Apache ancestors were hunted nearly to extinction not only by the White man, but by the Mexicans as well, who offered Texans a $2.00 a pair bounty for the ears of my brothers and sisters.

Nearly every freakin' culture on the face of this earth is the by-product of centuries of conquest, conquering, and being conquered. Mexico is not the only country on Earth ever invaded and conquered and to tell you the truth, the fact that you are still clinging to your animosity with regards to something which happened in 1521--nearly 500 years ago--just makes me wonder why you think your culture is deserving of so much more consideration than anybody elses?

You need to do a little reading--you might begin with an oldie but goldie--Alexander the Great, whose conquests included: Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia, Judea, Gaza, Egypt, Bactria, and Mesopotamia, and extended the boundaries of the Macedonian empire as far as Punjab, India.

Or how about the Roman Empire? From approximately 44 B.C. until 476 A.D. the Roman Empire occupied Portugal, Spain, Andorra, the United Kingdom, France, Monaco, Luxembourg, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Italy, San Marino, Vatican City, Malta, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Cyprus, Lebanon, Jordania, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Palestine.

Modern day Spain was occupied by Islamic Moors for over 800 years. Spain occupied many parts of Italy for 400 years.

Yet I wonder...where is the outcry from these cultures about the forcible rape of their ancestors, the removal from homelands, the widespread genocide of various cultures, many of whom ceased to exist with their conquerors arrival. You all b*tch and moan about all of the horrendous conditions inflicted upon "your people" even today in the U.S.--which is NOT your homeland (if you wish to continue with your premise of being indigenous Meso-american), while mine--who truly have a right to demand change in this country, continue to languish on reservations.

I'm so bloody sick of listening to people whine about conditions in this country holding them back. I know how you like to pull the race card, but it won't work with me buddy. I am Native American and Caucasian as are my children and my siblings. My nieces and nephews are Native American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Japanese. My grandbabies are Native American, African American and Caucasian. My family is single handedly working to erase racial barriers one child at a time and frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to you go on and on about how hard "your people" have it. The Irish in this country were treated even worse than you believe you have been. So were the Chinese. Did they march in the streets and complain about their treatment? NO. They worked, generation by generation, to become a part of the fabric of the country, to become productive in their new country and to eradicate any negative misconceptions people may have harbored.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's heritage. I am. But I don't shove it in anyone's face while complaining about how horrendously I and my fellow <insert ethnicity of your choice here> are treated by the rest of the country. As Mac indicated above, if everyone in this country held on to their various ancestral cultural identities rather than choosing to become a part of American culture, we would have nothing more than a piece of prime real estate with numerous fractured cultures that will never feel any commonality with their fellow countrymen. Why even bother to leave your ancestral homeland to begin with?

If you would stop wandering around with a chip on your shoulder, expecting to have it knocked off, you might find that more people in this country are for you than against you.

The difference is, people don't challenge how you choose to identify yourself.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 03:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,693,544 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The difference is, people don't challenge how you choose to identify yourself.
Oh really?

And you have determined this based on...what?

Unlike three of my sisters and my brother, I and two of my sisters have my father's Nordic look rather than the Native American looks of my mother.

With my blonde hair and blue eyes, do you think that I have no problem "identifying" myself as Apache? The same thing applies in reverse to my darker skinned, darker haired siblings. Do you think people look at them and think to themselves, "yep, there go some Vikings right there."

I have two nieces and a nephew who are a conglomeration of Mexican, Nordic, Scot, and Native American. Do you think they wake up every morning filled with angst, worried about which culture they should go about "identifying" themselves with that day? How about my three nephews and niece who are Japanese, Nordic, Scot, and Native American?

You are too hung up on your perception of what makes you different from others rather than accepting that which makes us all the same. You suppose that those of Latino descent are continually challenged regarding their self perception. Well what person isn't? We all are in some way or another.

I suggest you stop focusing on that which you believe sets you apart from others and start concentrating on commonality instead. I believe that you will find that your life experience is not that much different than anyone else's.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 03:51 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The difference is, people don't challenge how you choose to identify yourself.
One more point, amc, and then I'll 'leave you alone'. I'm not trying to upset you, but I've been at this game for at least 30 years. I know racists, and I know whites, and I know Latinos, and I know Indians..... and I knew illegals when they were GLAD to be here, and long before they "annoyed" anybody....and I've 'tangled with the best', and I've lost a few arguments, but it's been a lot of fun.

Here's my thought for you....you say you're a Latino, and you're proud of that, and you emphasize that, and you defy anyone who fails to 'respect' that fact....am I correct? You look at things from a Latino point of view, and that often disagrees with the "non-Latino" point of view...right? These are YOUR words, more-or-less, as you've expressed them to me.

Essentially what you're saying is, "I'm not like YOU..I'm different. I'm special. My concerns, my priorites, and my objectives aren't LIKE yours, because I'M A LATINO....and YOU'RE NOT". That's what I hear you saying. Basically, I think this is pretty close to your own words.

This is fine. You have every right to feel that way, though I've told you I think you're misguided. ONE reason I say this is because sometime, somewhere, sooner or later, you're going to become involved in some issue, or some situation in society, and you're going to want to be 'heard', and you're going to want to make some points, and you're going to want to be taken seriously. And when that time comes, somebody's going to say to you, "Sorry, amc, I really am....but you're a Latino, and this matter just doesn't concern Latinos. You're not like us. You're different. You're special. Your concerns, your priorities, and your objectives aren't LIKE 'ours", because you're a Latino, and we're NOT". And when somebody DOES say that, there won't be much you can say, because he'll be RIGHT. Using your OWN reasoning, he'll be saying essentially the same thing that YOU say...that your place is with the Latinos, and you have no business giving your input into any issue but a LATINO issue, just like "non-Latinos" should stay out of YOUR issues.

It sure doesn't sound like a very nice society to live in, (in fact, it sounds a lot like Bosnia), and I sure hope that kind of thinking never really becomes the 'norm' here. But that's essentially what your position is...unless I missed something. I HOPE I'm wrong...
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