U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 06-05-2008, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,822,205 times
Reputation: 3028

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The difference is, people don't challenge how you choose to identify yourself.
Why are you challenged "how you choose" to identify yourself?

 
Old 06-05-2008, 04:57 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,998,873 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
One more point, amc, and then I'll 'leave you alone'. I'm not trying to upset you, but I've been at this game for at least 30 years. I know racists, and I know whites, and I know Latinos, and I know Indians..... and I knew illegals when they were GLAD to be here, and long before they "annoyed" anybody....and I've 'tangled with the best', and I've lost a few arguments, but it's been a lot of fun.

Here's my thought for you....you say you're a Latino, and you're proud of that, and you emphasize that, and you defy anyone who fails to 'respect' that fact....am I correct? You look at things from a Latino point of view, and that often disagrees with the "non-Latino" point of view...right? These are YOUR words, more-or-less, as you've expressed them to me.

Essentially what you're saying is, "I'm not like YOU..I'm different. I'm special. My concerns, my priorites, and my objectives aren't LIKE yours, because I'M A LATINO....and YOU'RE NOT". That's what I hear you saying. Basically, I think this is pretty close to your own words.

This is fine. You have every right to feel that way, though I've told you I think you're misguided. ONE reason I say this is because sometime, somewhere, sooner or later, you're going to become involved in some issue, or some situation in society, and you're going to want to be 'heard', and you're going to want to make some points, and you're going to want to be taken seriously. And when that time comes, somebody's going to say to you, "Sorry, amc, I really am....but you're a Latino, and this matter just doesn't concern Latinos. You're not like us. You're different. You're special. Your concerns, your priorities, and your objectives aren't LIKE 'ours", because you're a Latino, and we're NOT". And when somebody DOES say that, there won't be much you can say, because he'll be RIGHT. Using your OWN reasoning, he'll be saying essentially the same thing that YOU say...that your place is with the Latinos, and you have no business giving your input into any issue but a LATINO issue, just like "non-Latinos" should stay out of YOUR issues.

It sure doesn't sound like a very nice society to live in, (in fact, it sounds a lot like Bosnia), and I sure hope that kind of thinking never really becomes the 'norm' here. But that's essentially what your position is...unless I missed something. I HOPE I'm wrong...
You have a very short memory. Are experiences are different, and we deserve more than ours being considered a shadow struggle.
Your idea of a color blind or an ethnicity blind nation is Mod Cut.

Not too long ago, people were being lynched for being "different, special, LATINO."
Quote:
It is estimated that at least 597 Mexicans and Mexican Americans were lynched between 1848 and 1928 in the Southwest. Mexican Americans were lynched at a rate of 27.4 per 100,000 of population between 1880 and 1930. This statistic is second only to that of the African American community during that period, which suffered an average of 37.1 per 100,000 of population. Between 1848 to 1879, Mexicans were lynched at an unprecedented rate of 473 per 100,000 of population. More problematic still is the fact that, despite the recent flourishing of academic literature on lynching, scholars also persistently overlook anti-Mexican violence
I am a proud Mexican-American, and I do say that I am Latino on this forum, because I hear so much stuff being said about my community, so I basically say,
Hey I'm Latino living in a Latino community! We dont feel this way!

To which I usually get the response from someone who is not Latino,
No! Look at these statistics! Your Wrong!

But...Im Latino!
No! Your Wrong!

I usually see you as an intelligent person, Macmeal(and not because of your drawn out rhetoric you like to use), and I use to hold your opinions pretty highly, but the way you and others sweep any problems Latinos face under this country under the rug is wrong, and is mindblowing to me.

You say, ahh, forget that stuff. Your an American! We're all the same!
I call Mod Cut on that. We havent all been the same, and we still aren't. If people in this country just settled, and went along with the status quo, things would have been a lot different in this country. So I demand recognition and attention to the problems Latinos DO face in this country. So maybe someday we can really be that Utopia, with everyone holding hands and singing cumbaya that you seem to think this country is.

Last edited by madicarus2000; 06-05-2008 at 09:30 PM.. Reason: language
 
Old 06-05-2008, 05:03 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,692,900 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
You have a very short memory. Are experiences are different, and we deserve more than ours being considered a shadow struggle.
Your idea of a color blind or an ethnicity blind nation is Mod Cut.

Not too long ago, people were being lynched for being "different, special, LATINO."


I am a proud Mexican-American, and I do say that I am Latino on this forum, because I hear so much stuff being said about my community, so I basically say,
Hey I'm Latino living in a Latino community! We dont feel this way!

To which I usually get the response from someone who is not Latino,
No! Look at these statistics! Your Wrong!

But...Im Latino!
No! Your Wrong!

I usually see you as an intelligent person, Macmeal(and not because of your drawn out rhetoric you like to use), and I use to hold your opinions pretty highly, but the way you and others sweep any problems Latinos face under this country under the rug is wrong, and is mindblowing to me.

You say, ahh, forget that stuff. Your an American! We're all the same!
I call Mod Cut on that. We havent all been the same, and we still aren't. If people in this country just settled, and went along with the status quo, things would have been a lot different in this country.
Oh poor me. I'm a victim. Pity me because I have the most wretched experience available to a person on the planet because I am a LATINO in the Racist States of America and nobody, but nobody is discriminated against as I have been--not Blacks, not women, not the Chinese, not the Irish, not the Native American--only I--the lone Latino know racism.

Go live on the reservation with my cousins in Oklahoma. Little or no indoor plumbing, dust bowl surroundings, sub-par educational facilities, rampant drug abuse and alcoholism, and an uncaring government--then talk to me about how horrendous your experience is as a person of Mexican American descent.

Your problem isn't your ancestry, it's your victim mentality.

Last edited by madicarus2000; 06-05-2008 at 09:31 PM.. Reason: edited linked post
 
Old 06-05-2008, 05:28 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,998,873 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Oh poor me. I'm a victim. Pity me because I have the most wretched experience available to a person on the planet because I am a LATINO in the Racist States of America and nobody, but nobody is discriminated against as I have been--not Blacks, not women, not the Chinese, not the Irish--only I--the lone Latino know racism.

Go live on the reservation with my cousins in Oklahoma. Little or no indoor plumbing, dust bowl surroundings, sub-par educational facilities, rampant drug abuse and alcoholism--then talk to me about how horrendous your experience is as a person of Mexican American descent.

Your problem isn't your ancestry, it's your victim mentality.
Did I say Mexicans or othe Latinos have had it worse than blacks? No.
All I said was we have had many problems that shouldnt be ignored.

Yeah, Ive been on some Indian reservations. Another great American institution.
The way you describe sounds just like the neighborhoods I grew up in. Minus the dust bowl surroundings and plumbing problems, adding a whole lot of murders and police beatdowns.

Should I tell you about my grandmother coming here taking care of her 4 sisters and then raising 3 girls and a boy on her own?
Should I tell you about her working in the fields sun up to sun down in 100 degree weather while crop dusters flew by dropping pesticides on them, since after all they were just poor mexicans?
How about my mom being 8-9 years old helping my grandmother in the fields, and it being so hot and them not knowing better, that her and her young cousins would jump up with joy when the cool DDT mist fell on them relieving them from the heat?

Or should I tell you about the poverty and lack of education leading so many of my cousins and friends into a dead end gang lifestyle? Seeing a boy get his head cracked open on the street when I was 6 years old by a bunch of thugs? Or having to sleep on the floor for awhile because the bullets were flying for a time.

how about seeing a lot my moms generation sitting out there on the park shooting heroin in their veins all day long? How about seeing my generation smoking rock or tweaking? And its gotten better..trust me, when I was a kid, I saw lots of my mom's generation hit pretty hard by drugs. Thank god my generation isn't as bad. but its there.

Problems are everywhere, but I think I've seen a little bit more in certain neighborhoods that I have in others.


I'm not saying my life is MISERABLE, in fact, Ive had a pretty good life. Im not selling you a sob story, im telling you stuff Ive SEEN. And you are here on the computer typing me from god knows where, that it isnt there.

And one more thing, that whole mocking thing "ohh poor baby", "ohh poor me" "ohhh poor baby want a widdle bottle", is very cheap and childish, and makes you look bad. It makes you look very spiteful.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 05:54 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,692,900 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Did I say Mexicans or othe Latinos have had it worse than blacks? No.
All I said was we have had many problems that shouldnt be ignored.

Yeah, Ive been on some Indian reservations. Another great American institution.
The way you describe sounds just like the neighborhoods I grew up in. Minus the dust bowl surroundings and plumbing problems, adding a whole lot of murders and police beatdowns.

Should I tell you about my grandmother coming here taking care of her 4 sisters and then raising 3 girls and a boy on her own?
Should I tell you about her working in the fields sun up to sun down in 100 degree weather while crop dusters flew by dropping pesticides on them, since after all they were just poor mexicans?
How about my mom being 8-9 years old helping my grandmother in the fields, and it being so hot and them not knowing better, that her and her young cousins would jump up with joy when the cool DDT mist fell on them relieving them from the heat?

Or should I tell you about the poverty and lack of education leading so many of my cousins and friends into a dead end gang lifestyle? Seeing a boy get his head cracked open on the street when I was 6 years old by a bunch of thugs? Or having to sleep on the floor for awhile because the bullets were flying for a time.

how about seeing a lot my moms generation sitting out there on the park shooting heroin in their veins all day long? How about seeing my generation smoking rock or tweaking? And its gotten better..trust me, when I was a kid, I saw lots of my mom's generation hit pretty hard by drugs. Thank god my generation isn't as bad. but its there.

Problems are everywhere, but I think I've seen a little bit more in certain neighborhoods that I have in others.


I'm not saying my life is MISERABLE, in fact, Ive had a pretty good life. Im not selling you a sob story, im telling you stuff Ive SEEN. And you are here on the computer typing me from god knows where, that it isnt there.

And one more thing, that whole mocking thing "ohh poor baby", "ohh poor me" "ohhh poor baby want a widdle bottle", is very cheap and childish, and makes you look bad. It makes you look very spiteful.
Personally, I don't care how you think I look--spiteful, childish--I'll tell you exactly what I am--fed freakin' up--that's what I am.

I'm telling you that whether you intend to or not, you come off as a victim. You come off as a person who is using his heritage to ride the Pity Me Express.

Regardless of what you've seen in your life, I could hook you up with folks who have seen as much if not worse. My Godfather, now an elderly African American man, watched as his grandfather was lynched--he was 10 years old and told me years ago that the incident still haunted his dreams.

My great grandmother's father recounted tales of rape and murder of the Apache people in Texas at the hands of both the White man and Mexicans.

My ex-husband's father quit school in the second grade and went to work in the cotton fields of Texas when his father died. He was the eldest child of 5 and the responsibility of supporting those children fell on his then small shoulders.

Everybody in the world has a story my friend. Everybody. Some are sadder and more desperate than others. But what matters is what they make of that story--what a person chooses to do with their lives that makes the big difference.

Those who continue to berate life's circumstances and to hold themselves as somehow different from their fellow man cannot then decry the unfairness of life when they are perceived as different by those to whom they held themselves up as such.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
Reputation: 3785
amc760 and Kele:

There is one difference between you guys' experiences that I can discern.

amc760's parents (at least his mother) dealt with a bunch of nasty stuff whereas in your case, Kele, it was further back in your heritage.

All of that stated; things happen.

Hell; it is not openly discussed but my father's people suffered at the hands of the Soviet army up and including rape at the end of WW II in Hungary-----and, I suspect that he witnessed some of those atrocities first hand.

Call me cold: oh well, life goes on...........
 
Old 06-05-2008, 06:13 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,998,873 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Personally, I don't care how you think I look--spiteful, childish--I'll tell you exactly what I am--fed freakin' up--that's what I am.

I'm telling you that whether you intend to or not, you come off as a victim. You come off as a person who is using his heritage to ride the Pity Me Express.

Regardless of what you've seen in your life, I could hook you up with folks who have seen as much if not worse. My Godfather, now an elderly African American man, watched as his grandfather was lynched--he was 10 years old and told me years ago that the incident still haunted his dreams.

My great grandmother's father recounted tales of rape and murder of the Apache people in Texas at the hands of both the White man and Mexicans.

My ex-husband's father quit school in the second grade and went to work in the cotton fields of Texas when his father died. He was the eldest child of 5 and the responsibility of supporting those children fell on his then small shoulders.

Everybody in the world has a story my friend. Everybody. Some are sadder and more desperate than others. But what matters is what they make of that story--what a person chooses to do with their lives that makes the big difference.

Those who continue to berate life's circumstances and to hold themselves as somehow different from their fellow man cannot then decry the unfairness of life when they are perceived as different by those to whom they held themselves up as such.
But do you hear me brushing aside their experiences? Do I say, "ohhh poor babies"? NO.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 06:15 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,621,702 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
You have a very short memory. Are experiences are different, and we deserve more than ours being considered a shadow struggle.
Your idea of a color blind or an ethnicity blind nation is bull****.

Not too long ago, people were being lynched for being "different, special, LATINO."


I am a proud Mexican-American, and I do say that I am Latino on this forum, because I hear so much stuff being said about my community, so I basically say,
Hey I'm Latino living in a Latino community! We dont feel this way!

To which I usually get the response from someone who is not Latino,
No! Look at these statistics! Your Wrong!

But...Im Latino!
No! Your Wrong!

I usually see you as an intelligent person, Macmeal(and not because of your drawn out rhetoric you like to use), and I use to hold your opinions pretty highly, but the way you and others sweep any problems Latinos face under this country under the rug is wrong, and is mindblowing to me.

You say, ahh, forget that stuff. Your an American! We're all the same!
I call BS on that. We havent all been the same, and we still aren't. If people in this country just settled, and went along with the status quo, things would have been a lot different in this country. So I demand recognition and attention to the problems Latinos DO face in this country. So maybe someday we can really be that Utopia, with everyone holding hands and singing cumbaya that you seem to think this country is.
Well, I wish you luck, and I wish you peace, and I hope your future is a good one. We've kind of gotten off the subject here, but I don't see how advocating on on-going situation of illegals coming in is going to help YOU, or improve your 'lot' in society....but your feelings are yours. Peace to you.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 06:16 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,998,873 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
amc760 and Kele:

There is one difference between you guys' experiences that I can discern.

amc760's parents (at least his mother) dealt with a bunch of nasty stuff whereas in your case, Kele, it was further back in your heritage.

All of that stated; things happen.

Hell; it is not openly discussed but my father's people suffered at the hands of the Soviet army up and including rape at the end of WW II in Hungary-----and, I suspect that he witnessed some of those atrocities first hand.

Call me cold: oh well, life goes on...........
It goes all the way back to why my family immigrated here in the first place. It goes alllllll the way back to when the Spaniards were there. things are getting better in Mexico, but only recently, and not for everybody. THere are many families like mine that have lived in poverty for generations. Much like the Indians in the United States.

I dont doubt the problems many people in Europe have gone through. Thats why they immigrated here!

And trust me, I dont dwell on these things, Ive seen a whole lot of stuff. Ive almost been killed a few times for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like you said life goes on.

But Ive seen enough to where I know it does exist. There ARE problems. And I dont give a damn about being a "victim of the environment" or whatever. But dont tell me lifes plush for all Latinos here, because its not.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,640,026 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
It goes all the way back to why my family immigrated here in the first place. It goes alllllll the way back to when the Spaniards were there. things are getting better in Mexico, but only recently, and not for everybody. THere are many families like mine that have lived in poverty for generations. Much like the Indians in the United States.

I dont doubt the problems many people in Europe have gone through. Thats why they immigrated here!

And trust me, I dont dwell on these things, Ive seen a whole lot of stuff. Ive almost been killed a few times for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like you said life goes on.

But Ive seen enough to where I know it does exist. There ARE problems. And I dont give a damn about being a "victim of the environment" or whatever. But dont tell me lifes plush for all Latinos here, because its not.
Life ain't 'plush' for many Americans there.......remember that.

Look at your 'Scots-Irish' hillbillies in W Va, etc. many Rez Indians, inner city Blacks and so forth.

If you subtract the illegal Latinos from the total pool of Hispanics----the latter as a group rank higher up the socio-economic food chain than either Rez Indians or Blacks. Again; note I am referring to groups; not individuals with an exceptional 'can-do' attitude.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top