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Old 06-07-2008, 11:02 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
As I have said time and time again, I don't justify illegal immigration.
I am not against certain laws aimed at curbing illegal immigration, I support targeting employers who discriminate against U.S. Citizens by solely hiring illegal immigrants.

However, I speak out against the demonizing of the Mexican people, which I feel is slowly starting to incite a resurgence of Hispanophobia. I am definitely against the targeting and harassment of "illegal" immigrants by vigilante groups, and also the divide it is beginnging to cause between Hispanics and other Americans.

In my heart, the few criminals notwithstanding, I believe most immigrants are truly here to forge a new life and provide for their children.

That is my stance, but for that I have been called Anti-American, Racist, Scum, a female?, a worm, and a bunch of other things on this very board.
While illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be curbed, I don't think this is what so much American anger should be directed at, so much energy wasted on.

I feel that these immigrants, the majority of which are good people, are scapegoats for the much larger problems of this nation. The fear of a different culture(language, customs), the fear of these people taking "our" jobs(through the discrimination of cheap employers) is hardly enough reason to be so violently angry over someone crossing a line drawn in the sand.


I, an American who's family could be considered recent immigrants am very involved in this topic because I feel an affinity with the struggling immigrant.
But why are so many American's violently angry about this? So engrossed in this debate?


I feel that it is a distraction for the other problems of this nation. As our economy falls deeper into a recession, as our nation debt climbs higher and higher while we wage illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the price of oil soars, we torture people in places like Guantanamo Bay, our government passes laws allowing torture of Muslim people SUSPECTED of terrorist ties, our government is locking up people with no charges for several years, our own rights are being violated using the excuse of our safety(patriot act), suspicion rising over 9/11 and the reasons for invading Iraq etc etc etc.

what better place to point the finger at than the brown-skinned, Spanish speaking "invaders", or as people like AzBear likes to call them, "the Menace" ?

A dirty, foreign, Alien horde, that refuses to accept good old fashioned American principles this nation was built on! They burn Old Glory, they rape our women, kill our bright youth. Form gangs that terrorize "our" streets, and take the jobs from the Average Joes of this fine country.
RENCONQUISTA! They want to fill our cities and overcome our nation, and when they are on every street corner, and packed 50 people in the house next to you, then they will enslave us and make us part of the "craphole" country Mexico!
They are racist against us and our way of life! They will enslave Black and White people and make us work at their(our?) maquiladoras!

Illegals. Racists. Menace. Invaders. Criminals. Gangmembers. Rapists. Murderers. Dirty. Aliens. Thieves. Hell, even White Supremacists.


Pretty convenient. What a perfect enemy to unify the American people, and get these unified Americans backs turned to the real problems of this country, and against a tangible enemy. Gangbanging ghetto dwellers AND white supremacists! The poorest people in this country AND sucking our economy dry! Perfect! The swiss army knife of distractions!

Feel like your being a little discriminatory? Dont worry about it! Theyre racists, remember? You cant be racist against racists! Its impossible! In fact, their not even a race! Go stick a video camera in some laborers face until they get irritated and punch you in the face so you can cry assault to the nearest police officer already, you silly kid!

Anyways, as this post started, just as food for thought, i'd like to show you this video. Yeah, its an annoying cartoon, but watch it through and listen to what it says...as annoying as the animation is, it has some arguments..
It kind of aims to justify illegal immigration, which I don't agree with, but it makes some valid points on who the "enemy" is, and how we see them and why.
I know most of you will be seeing red when it comes to some of the things brought up, but listen to it and watch. Keep an open mind and listen to another argument besides your own.


YouTube - How to Solve Illegal Immigration
Your post IS "food for thought". Everything you mention HAS happened, and it's unpleasant, and it's disturbing. It's what happens when people feel they're losing control of their lives. It would happen anywhere, in most places at a level far WORSE than it's happening here. The US really IS still among the most tolerant of nations....it may not SEEM so, at times, because most societies are never 'put to the test'..but I'll make you a bet..that if you took ANY large nation, moved ten percent of its population ilegally into ANOTHER large nation, illegally and without permission, and the "new" people began impacting upon the "local" people, in ANY way, the results would be the same...hostile remarks, irrational fears (along with the rational ones), ugly slogans, and a few 'wackos' chiming in with suggestions of violence. This is a forum, and we're going to hear from "all kinds" here.

To THEN tell these "local people" that they are WRONG...that the "new" people have the same rights THEY do, that it's the "local people's" fault if they can't "deal with it"....I think that in MOST places, you'd probably see REAL violence, and REAL racism....Here, SO FAR at least, it's mostly a lot of angry, disgusted grumbling, and not much else. Pretty tame by world standards, I'd say. Pretty civilized, too.

Don't want to hurt your feelings, amc, but I think what you sense here may be looking at the 'negative' side, which you seem to concentrate on..but I ALSO think it's hardly surprising, in view of the situation. Most Americans aren't intellectual idealists, they're everyday people. How do you honestly EXPECT 'normal" people to deal with this....by throwing an "illegal alien welcoming parade"? That's probably not going to happen...nor would it likely happen in ANY society. There are MANY kind, generous Americans, plus some 'grumpy" ones, some 'stingy' ones, and a few racists and 'wackos' thrown in also (just like there are in ANY country). And ALL of us, the good, the bad, and the in-between, are under quite a bit of strain just now, for MANY reasons, such as those you cited above. One MORE reason for the 'strain' is ilegal immigration, and that's what this forum is about. I can assure you, many of us are upset about the OTHER things you mention, as well. But MOST of those "other things" don't have a large lobby of people defending them. Illegal immigration DOES, and that adds to the anger and the frustration.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You are undoubtedly sincere, and I commend you for that. However, your heritage and relationship with Mexican illegal aliens has blinded you to the real problems created by this massive invasion. Yes, I said invasion. Had millions of Mexicans crossed our border on a given day or during the course of a weekend, few would consider it anything but an invasion. The fact that they have entered over a extended period does not negate this fact.

As mentioned ad nauseam, our needs have changed. There are currently over 8 million U.S. citizens eligible for unemployment benefits. There are millions more unemployed but excluded from the reported unemployment figures. Each month another large corporation announces massive layoffs. We simply have no need for millions of low-skilled, illiterate illegal aliens.

Why not encourage them to fight for improvements in Mexico? Where is the outrage over the inhumane treatment of these “immigrants” in their own country? I’m sorry, but the U.S. is not responsible for the impoverished citizens of Mexico or any other country. We have had enough, and our patience is waning.

I posed a question to illegal alien apologists, but have yet to receive a response. I ask again. All things being equal; if the millions of illegal alien ‘Hispanics’ were instead African or Haitian, would you still feel the same level of compassion and concern? Would you still welcome them and feel such intense desire for them to be granted a path to citizenship? Can you “honestly” answer yes?
Speaking for just myself here: if a bunch of 'Shanty Irish' (yeah, I know, good luck finding a 'poor' Irishman today-----that nation is now solid First World) came to the USA, even if 'legally' but continued with their fighting, excessive breeding, drinking and so on--------I would be uber pissed and would want 'em gone.

And; the irony is I get mistaken for 'Irish' a lot due to my facial features and complexion.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:06 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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In response to Benicar, my replies in Bold:


You are undoubtedly sincere, and I commend you for that. However, your heritage and relationship with Mexican illegal aliens has blinded you to the real problems created by this massive invasion. Yes, I said invasion. Had millions of Mexicans crossed our border on a given day or during the course of a weekend, few would consider it anything but an invasion. The fact that they have entered over a extended period does not negate this fact.
It hasn't affected me in a negative way at this point. Living where illegals have flooded to since they started coming from Mexico/Central America, a place saturated with illegals, it just hasn't affected me on a personal level. It doesn't have me seeing red such as say the rising oil prices which has also led to rising food prices.
As far as millions of Mexicans crossing over a weekend, when talking about this issue with my friends, its why I don't support an "open border". If that were too happen, it truly would be a disaster. We have been better off with these people coming in at lower numbers, and being able to find housing instead of being out on the streets, and forming more illegal camps than exist today. Because we have more of a leak than a flood, their presence hasn't been catastrophic, and with more enforcement of the border, it isn't necessarily going to be.

As mentioned ad nauseam, our needs have changed. There are currently over 8 million U.S. citizens eligible for unemployment benefits. There are millions more unemployed but excluded from the reported unemployment figures. Each month another large corporation announces massive layoffs. We simply have no need for millions of low-skilled, illiterate illegal aliens.

What are we going to do about company after company moving its operations out of California, or the Midwest, and even out of the United States? Why everytime you call a support hotline, youre speaking to someone in India? Where are all the factory jobs? As bad as it is having workers imported, we're having all the good blue-collar jobs exported! But large corporations have a lot of power with their lobbyists, and political ties. They can do whatever they want. Hiring immigrants who dont ask for money and benefits, and exporting jobs to people who live in countries where less money goes a lot further.

Why not encourage them to fight for improvements in Mexico? Where is the outrage over the inhumane treatment of these “immigrants” in their own country? I’m sorry, but the U.S. is not responsible for the impoverished citizens of Mexico or any other country. We have had enough, and our patience is waning.
On a diplomatic level, we got to push more reform in Mexico. Not to benefit them, but us! They are our neighbors, and what they do wrong there is going to end up in our laps.
The same people that abuse the immigrants going into Mexico, are the same people abusing the poor of that country. I resent the actions of corrupt military/police being attributed to Mexican immigrants. I do acknowledge the hypocrisy of the Mexican government for telling the American Government how to treat immigrants. But who ever loved the Mexican Government?
Just like in America, to me Government doesn't equal Country. I can love the country and culture of Mexico without agreeing with all or any of what the government is saying.

I posed a question to illegal alien apologists, but have yet to receive a response. I ask again. All things being equal; if the millions of illegal alien ‘Hispanics’ were instead African or Haitian, would you still feel the same level of compassion and concern? Would you still welcome them and feel such intense desire for them to be granted a path to citizenship? Can you “honestly” answer yes?
Anyone can say yes to that answer, just like anyone can say they only have problems with the "illegal immigrants". But would you believe them?
That question shouldn't only be posed to illegal alien apologists, but also to those who are against illegal immigrants. Those who stage protests where they put a spotlight on their Black supporters as if they were doing some kind of PR move.
How much larger would these groups be? The KKK is getting a boost in enrollment over Hispanic immigrants, but imagine if they were Black? How would America feel if within 20 years, a huge portion of the population was becoming Black? Would it be politically correct to say "the blacks are taking over this country!" or "everytime I drive to work I have these Africans standing on every corner".

But I'll answer your question the best I can. After High School, I was tired of my neighborhood and decided to move out on my own. I moved to a different city, and found myself living for a year and half in a neighborhood that along with Mexicans, Central Americans, Vietnamese, was heavily Somalian/Ethiopian.
I lived in an community type apartment complex that I would say was 10 percent Hispanic, 10 percent Black American, 10 percent Southeast Asian, and 70 percent African.
I had the privilege of living among these people, and I got a very good impression of them. The community apartment complex was a good idea for that neighborhood. Dont want to sound corny, but everyone got along. People held doors for each other(even hispanics for africans), everyone smiled at each other when passing, people held the elevator door open.
All the kids played in the playground in the middle of the complex. I thought it was great seeing so many different kids playing together.

So yeah, I really had a respect for the African people. I saw them to be very much like the Latino immigrants I have met. Hardworking, very family oriented, and I guess just the way they carried themselves. Luckily, most of these people have been able to come through seeking asylum, because I would think it was a tragedy if they faced the same kind of scrutiny as the Mexican immigrants. Or worse.

If there was a lot more of these African immigrants, I think I would enjoy it. And thats my position as a Mexican-American.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:22 AM
 
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Seeing that the only 3 murders in my town this year were from illegals along wiht numerous other violent crimes, yes, it is having an effect.

Jobs that employed them are way down here and so now there are a bunch that resort to stealing and violent assaults to make a living so to speak.

Sure, citizens and legal residents commit crimes also, but it is worst when it is somebody that is not even suppose to be here, and when they are committing a large portion of it relative to their population.

What was just a few years ago a town you could leave your doors unlocked and windows down now has become a security concious community due to these people roaming the neighborhoods during the day breaking in to steal things.

Factories and other sectors love hiring illegals because then they can get away with things a citizen would report like safety violations, wage disputes, etc.. they hire them for dirt cheap leaving the local population to search around for work.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:28 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Seeing that the only 3 murders in my town this year were from illegals along wiht numerous other violent crimes, yes, it is having an effect.

Jobs that employed them are way down here and so now there are a bunch that resort to stealing and violent assaults to make a living so to speak.

Sure, citizens and legal residents commit crimes also, but it is worst when it is somebody that is not even suppose to be here, and when they are committing a large portion of it relative to their population.

What was just a few years ago a town you could leave your doors unlocked and windows down now has become a security concious community due to these people roaming the neighborhoods during the day breaking in to steal things.

Factories and other sectors love hiring illegals because then they can get away with things a citizen would report like safety violations, wage disputes, etc.. they hire them for dirt cheap leaving the local population to search around for work.
3 murders?? Where is this? Mayberry?! haha

But seriously can you PM me the name of the town, or the local papers website? I'm actually curious to have an idea of how illegals are ending up in these small towns, and their affect on them.

About them being hired because theyre less likely to be whistle blowers, your towns people should call them on it. Its discrimination if they are hiring illegals instead of Citizens. Not exacly the immigrants' fault.
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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amc760, We are in total agreement regarding outsourcing and the demise of our manufacturing industry. Illegal immigration has the same consequence. Don’t you realize our government, special interest groups, and the corporate elite are systematically eliminating our middle-class? They are either insourcing through cheap illegal/legal (visa) labor, or outsourcing to countries with ‘slave’ wages. The result is the same…..OUR citizens are being replaced or undercut by cheap foreign labor.
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:15 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
amc760, We are in total agreement regarding outsourcing and the demise of our manufacturing industry. Illegal immigration has the same consequence. Don’t you realize our government, special interest groups, and the corporate elite are systematically eliminating our middle-class? They are either insourcing through cheap illegal/legal (visa) labor, or outsourcing to countries with ‘slave’ wages. The result is the same…..OUR citizens are being replaced or undercut by cheap foreign labor.
Its scary, but like I said, the pressure needs to be put on the people up top. Im just saying instead of directing our anger at the immigrants themselves, we should be directing it at their enablers.
Because they are doing what we are doing: putting their needs first. They are not going to stop coming over moral issues. They want a good life, and are determined to get it by all means.

Its kind of pointless to bash the immigrants, because they are not in charge of whats going on.
You cant arrest every single one, and deport them all. Or plug any hole in the fence to keep them out. You have to stop it at the source.

The corporations that engage in discriminatory hiring practices to save money need to be targeted more . These illegal immigrants will stop coming in such huge numbers when jobs for them become slim.

Im not going to pretend like I have an idea to clean up this mess, but I think if we could get employers to hire U.S. Citizens/documented workers, and pushing reform in Mexico would benefit us, and the curb the number of people immigrating here illegally.

Its just that illegal immigrants feel like an enemy that can be combated. I think thats why so many of these anti-illegal groups have formed. Theres a lot of frustration in this country right now, a lot of jobs leaving the country, a recession, the real estate bubble, etc.
Challenging the government and the corporations seems like insurmountable odds. You cant fight City Hall. I think the anger at the actual immigrants(illegal or not) is misdirected, because they are a tangible group that is right in our face, but the anger should be directed at the people on top.
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:51 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Its just that illegal immigrants feel like an enemy that can be combated. I think thats why so many of these anti-illegal groups have formed. Theres a lot of frustration in this country right now, a lot of jobs leaving the country, a recession, the real estate bubble, etc.
Challenging the government and the corporations seems like insurmountable odds. You cant fight City Hall. I think the anger at the actual immigrants(illegal or not) is misdirected, because they are a tangible group that is right in our face, but the anger should be directed at the people on top.
All the reasons you cite for 'making us mad' are true..the malfeasance in high office, the irresponsible corporate heads, the shifty politicians "on the take", and those who ship jobs offshore....and I agree with you. I STILL don't see, though, why illegal immigration should be ignored. It sounds like you're saying "our situation is SO screwed up, a few illegals won't matter".

Why can't we get mad at all the "big guys" you mention, and STILL get mad at the illegals, too? They ARE human beings, they DO have the capability of making a rational choice, and they DO make a decision to come here, and they KNOW they're coming in by 'jumping the line' ahead of legal immigrants, but they don't care. Can't we get mad at the 'big guys' AND the 'little guys' too?

Once more, for the record, NO ONE on this forum has ever heard me advocate huge, massive deportations of anybody who's been here a while...(because I've never done so). And NO ONE has heard me express any racism. In fact, I've frequently praised the qualities of those many illegals I've known, as individuals. What I'M mad at is BEHAVIOR, not "race". And what I want is for people to quit telling me how the illegals "can't stop" coming, and "won't stop" coming, unless they're "stopped"....and that they SHOULDN'T be stopped, because that would be "racist". And I'm tired of hearing that "people came 100 years ago, so they should keep coming forever, and no one has the right to do anything about it"....it's intelectually dishonest, it's short-sighted, and it's a load of BULL....and it's an argument that would NEVER work in any other context..We don't "Do" the things we "did" 3 generations ago, because we don't have the SOCIETY we had 3 generations ago. And THAT includes bringing in massive amounts of unskilled labor, and then scrambling to find ways of "fitting them in"....and then being told it's "for our benefit", and that we should encourage this practice. It's insane. WE can't even accomodate our OWN high-school dropouts, yet we "need" masses of impoverished people? Explain THAT to me, please.

And no, the illegals are NOT happy to come here and take the "grunt" jobs for "crap" wages..(that's ANOTHER statement I'm tired of)...they've changed, TOO. And that's the problem. Illegals now want GOOD jobs, for GOOD wages, with GOOD benefits. And when they don't get them, they get resentful.

None of this means I'm not "mad" at the slimy politicians and the corporate 'thieves' who hire these guys. If you want to start a forum about the 'crooked employers', I'll be glad to comment.
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:16 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All the reasons you cite for 'making us mad' are true..the malfeasance in high office, the irresponsible corporate heads, the shifty politicians "on the take", and those who ship jobs offshore....and I agree with you. I STILL don't see, though, why illegal immigration should be ignored. It sounds like you're saying "our situation is SO screwed up, a few illegals won't matter".

Why can't we get mad at all the "big guys" you mention, and STILL get mad at the illegals, too? They ARE human beings, they DO have the capability of making a rational choice, and they DO make a decision to come here, and they KNOW they're coming in by 'jumping the line' ahead of legal immigrants, but they don't care. Can't we get mad at the 'big guys' AND the 'little guys' too?

Once more, for the record, NO ONE on this forum has ever heard me advocate huge, massive deportations of anybody who's been here a while...(because I've never done so). And NO ONE has heard me express any racism. In fact, I've frequently praised the qualities of those many illegals I've known, as individuals. What I'M mad at is BEHAVIOR, not "race". And what I want is for people to quit telling me how the illegals "can't stop" coming, and "won't stop" coming, unless they're "stopped"....and that they SHOULDN'T be stopped, because that would be "racist". And I'm tired of hearing that "people came 100 years ago, so they should keep coming forever, and no one has the right to do anything about it"....it's intelectually dishonest, it's short-sighted, and it's a load of BULL....and it's an argument that would NEVER work in any other context..We don't "Do" the things we "did" 3 generations ago, because we don't have the SOCIETY we had 3 generations ago. And THAT includes bringing in massive amounts of unskilled labor, and then scrambling to find ways of "fitting them in"....and then being told it's "for our benefit", and that we should encourage this practice. It's insane. WE can't even accomodate our OWN high-school dropouts, yet we "need" masses of impoverished people? Explain THAT to me, please.

And no, the illegals are NOT happy to come here and take the "grunt" jobs for "crap" wages..(that's ANOTHER statement I'm tired of)...they've changed, TOO. And that's the problem. Illegals now want GOOD jobs, for GOOD wages, with GOOD benefits. And when they don't get them, they get resentful.

None of this means I'm not "mad" at the slimy politicians and the corporate 'thieves' who hire these guys. If you want to start a forum about the 'crooked employers', I'll be glad to comment.
Im not saying we should ignore illegal immigration. Im just saying people should shift the blame to someone besides the immigrants themselves.
Im saying the rabid anger Ive seen directed at immigrants, illegal and otherwise, is in a way kind of futile.
People are foaming at the mouth over the symptoms and not the problem.

There are going to be illegal immigrants in this country forever. It needs to be curbed, but I dont think it will ever be stopped. This country is too attractive for so many.

And yes, these people know what they are doing. But their priority isn't legal immigrants or even the attitude of American citizens. Their priority is opportunity to provide for their families.
But even then, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change attitudes on illegal immigrants.

People are always going to want to come here. We need to be pushing large corporations to change hiring processes, so its much harder for illegals to be hired.
Illegal immigration is an inevitability, and there doesn't need to be the hostility that is developing in this country. Nothing good can come of terrorizing illegal immigrants(not to say that you advocate that), so look at the source of the problem.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:51 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Im not saying we should ignore illegal immigration. Im just saying people should shift the blame to someone besides the immigrants themselves.
Im saying the rabid anger Ive seen directed at immigrants, illegal and otherwise, is in a way kind of futile.
People are foaming at the mouth over the symptoms and not the problem.

There are going to be illegal immigrants in this country forever. It needs to be curbed, but I dont think it will ever be stopped. This country is too attractive for so many.

And yes, these people know what they are doing. But their priority isn't legal immigrants or even the attitude of American citizens. Their priority is opportunity to provide for their families.
But even then, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change attitudes on illegal immigrants.

People are always going to want to come here. We need to be pushing large corporations to change hiring processes, so its much harder for illegals to be hired.
Illegal immigration is an inevitability, and there doesn't need to be the hostility that is developing in this country. Nothing good can come of terrorizing illegal immigrants(not to say that you advocate that), so look at the source of the problem.
OK, we agree on many points, if not on all. Thanks for your comments....
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