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Old 06-07-2008, 05:54 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332

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Last edited by amc760; 06-07-2008 at 06:04 AM..
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:03 AM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332
As I have said time and time again, I don't justify illegal immigration.
I am not against certain laws aimed at curbing illegal immigration, I support targeting employers who discriminate against U.S. Citizens by solely hiring illegal immigrants.

However, I speak out against the demonizing of the Mexican people, which I feel is slowly starting to incite a resurgence of Hispanophobia. I am definitely against the targeting and harassment of "illegal" immigrants by vigilante groups, and also the divide it is beginnging to cause between Hispanics and other Americans.

In my heart, the few criminals notwithstanding, I believe most immigrants are truly here to forge a new life and provide for their children.

That is my stance, but for that I have been called Anti-American, Racist, Scum, a female?, a worm, and a bunch of other things on this very board.
While illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be curbed, I don't think this is what so much American anger should be directed at, so much energy wasted on.

I feel that these immigrants, the majority of which are good people, are scapegoats for the much larger problems of this nation. The fear of a different culture(language, customs), the fear of these people taking "our" jobs(through the discrimination of cheap employers) is hardly enough reason to be so violently angry over someone crossing a line drawn in the sand.


I, an American who's family could be considered recent immigrants am very involved in this topic because I feel an affinity with the struggling immigrant.
But why are so many American's violently angry about this? So engrossed in this debate?


I feel that it is a distraction for the other problems of this nation. As our economy falls deeper into a recession, as our nation debt climbs higher and higher while we wage illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the price of oil soars, we torture people in places like Guantanamo Bay, our government passes laws allowing torture of Muslim people SUSPECTED of terrorist ties, our government is locking up people with no charges for several years, our own rights are being violated using the excuse of our safety(patriot act), suspicion rising over 9/11 and the reasons for invading Iraq etc etc etc.

what better place to point the finger at than the brown-skinned, Spanish speaking "invaders", or as people like AzBear likes to call them, "the Menace" ?

A dirty, foreign, Alien horde, that refuses to accept good old fashioned American principles this nation was built on! They burn Old Glory, they rape our women, kill our bright youth. Form gangs that terrorize "our" streets, and take the jobs from the Average Joes of this fine country.
RENCONQUISTA! They want to fill our cities and overcome our nation, and when they are on every street corner, and packed 50 people in the house next to you, then they will enslave us and make us part of the "craphole" country Mexico!
They are racist against us and our way of life! They will enslave Black and White people and make us work at their(our?) maquiladoras!

Illegals. Racists. Menace. Invaders. Criminals. Gangmembers. Rapists. Murderers. Dirty. Aliens. Thieves. Hell, even White Supremacists.


Pretty convenient. What a perfect enemy to unify the American people, and get these unified Americans backs turned to the real problems of this country, and against a tangible enemy. Gangbanging ghetto dwellers AND white supremacists! The poorest people in this country AND sucking our economy dry! Perfect! The swiss army knife of distractions!

Feel like your being a little discriminatory? Dont worry about it! Theyre racists, remember? You cant be racist against racists! Its impossible! In fact, their not even a race! Go stick a video camera in some laborers face until they get irritated and punch you in the face so you can cry assault to the nearest police officer already, you silly kid!

Anyways, as this post started, just as food for thought, i'd like to show you this video. Yeah, its an annoying cartoon, but watch it through and listen to what it says...as annoying as the animation is, it has some arguments..
It kind of aims to justify illegal immigration, which I don't agree with, but it makes some valid points on who the "enemy" is, and how we see them and why.
I know most of you will be seeing red when it comes to some of the things brought up, but listen to it and watch. Keep an open mind and listen to another argument besides your own.


YouTube - How to Solve Illegal Immigration

Last edited by amc760; 06-07-2008 at 06:13 AM..
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Old 06-07-2008, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Good post amc. I just disagree with you on a few points.
Illegals do hurt legal residents. They lowball the market and drive honest legal folks out of work.
The children of illegals. Anyone who can hate a child any child is beneath contempt. I feel pity for the children because they are the true victims of their parents poor decision making.
The few criminals? They are all criminals.... Each and every one of them.
Do they pay taxes on their wages?
Do they pay towards school taxes?
What percent use stolen ID, ssn's ?
The life they had south of the border is not our problem nor our concern. Our concern is protecting the lives of US citizens..
I am married to a legal immigrant. We paid the fee's stood in the lines, and followed the rules.
They cheated their way in. There are no comparisons to legal immigrants.
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Old 06-07-2008, 08:45 AM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,658,155 times
Reputation: 690
Quote:
In my heart, the few criminals notwithstanding, I believe most immigrants are truly here to forge a new life and provide for their children.
European Americans have a right to preserve our culture and our people just as much as Latin American people do. We welcome legal Latin American immigrants in reasonable numbers. I stress reasonable. I blame the Latin American for the animosity that we see today. Stop having so many babies, get educated, organize and work out a solution for economic change in Latin America. Stop using emigration as your primary means to over come poverty.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:08 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
As I have said time and time again, I don't justify illegal immigration.
I am not against certain laws aimed at curbing illegal immigration, I support targeting employers who discriminate against U.S. Citizens by solely hiring illegal immigrants.

However, I speak out against the demonizing of the Mexican people, which I feel is slowly starting to incite a resurgence of Hispanophobia. I am definitely against the targeting and harassment of "illegal" immigrants by vigilante groups, and also the divide it is beginnging to cause between Hispanics and other Americans.

In my heart, the few criminals notwithstanding, I believe most immigrants are truly here to forge a new life and provide for their children.

That is my stance, but for that I have been called Anti-American, Racist, Scum, a female?, a worm, and a bunch of other things on this very board.
While illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be curbed, I don't think this is what so much American anger should be directed at, so much energy wasted on.

I feel that these immigrants, the majority of which are good people, are scapegoats for the much larger problems of this nation. The fear of a different culture(language, customs), the fear of these people taking "our" jobs(through the discrimination of cheap employers) is hardly enough reason to be so violently angry over someone crossing a line drawn in the sand.


I, an American who's family could be considered recent immigrants am very involved in this topic because I feel an affinity with the struggling immigrant.
But why are so many American's violently angry about this? So engrossed in this debate?


I feel that it is a distraction for the other problems of this nation. As our economy falls deeper into a recession, as our nation debt climbs higher and higher while we wage illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the price of oil soars, we torture people in places like Guantanamo Bay, our government passes laws allowing torture of Muslim people SUSPECTED of terrorist ties, our government is locking up people with no charges for several years, our own rights are being violated using the excuse of our safety(patriot act), suspicion rising over 9/11 and the reasons for invading Iraq etc etc etc.

what better place to point the finger at than the brown-skinned, Spanish speaking "invaders", or as people like AzBear likes to call them, "the Menace" ?

A dirty, foreign, Alien horde, that refuses to accept good old fashioned American principles this nation was built on! They burn Old Glory, they rape our women, kill our bright youth. Form gangs that terrorize "our" streets, and take the jobs from the Average Joes of this fine country.
RENCONQUISTA! They want to fill our cities and overcome our nation, and when they are on every street corner, and packed 50 people in the house next to you, then they will enslave us and make us part of the "craphole" country Mexico!
They are racist against us and our way of life! They will enslave Black and White people and make us work at their(our?) maquiladoras!

Illegals. Racists. Menace. Invaders. Criminals. Gangmembers. Rapists. Murderers. Dirty. Aliens. Thieves. Hell, even White Supremacists.


Pretty convenient. What a perfect enemy to unify the American people, and get these unified Americans backs turned to the real problems of this country, and against a tangible enemy. Gangbanging ghetto dwellers AND white supremacists! The poorest people in this country AND sucking our economy dry! Perfect! The swiss army knife of distractions!

Feel like your being a little discriminatory? Dont worry about it! Theyre racists, remember? You cant be racist against racists! Its impossible! In fact, their not even a race! Go stick a video camera in some laborers face until they get irritated and punch you in the face so you can cry assault to the nearest police officer already, you silly kid!

Anyways, as this post started, just as food for thought, i'd like to show you this video. Yeah, its an annoying cartoon, but watch it through and listen to what it says...as annoying as the animation is, it has some arguments..
It kind of aims to justify illegal immigration, which I don't agree with, but it makes some valid points on who the "enemy" is, and how we see them and why.
I know most of you will be seeing red when it comes to some of the things brought up, but listen to it and watch. Keep an open mind and listen to another argument besides your own.


YouTube - How to Solve Illegal Immigration
I don't think anyone demonizes the people of Mexico who stay in Mexico, and they don't demonize those people in Mexico who learn English and apply for legal immigration and find an employer to sponsor them because they have special skills. No one demonizes the temporary guest workers who legally obtain visas to come and work certain jobs in agriculture.

It's the attitude that so many have, that they believe they are not expected to abide by our laws, and that this country should convert to their language because they don't want to make the effort to learn the common language of this country.

Also it has to do with culture. When millions of people flee their own failed country -- or at least claim that's why they are sneaking in illegally, and then turn around and insist that we must learn their culture, their language and adapt to their ways, and respect that they will celebrate their own national holidays and salute their own country's flags --- people will have a problem with that.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:15 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
It's more than all that though. Can the USA actually absorb a whole entire nation that seems to believe it has an unlimited right to come here, that ANY restrictions at all on immigration are somehow racist?

Does the USA really have the ability to take in the over billion impoverished individuals of the world? Is wanting a "better life" only to mean you demand to have that better life in the USA, or can wanting a better life inspire people to work for reforms in their own countries?

Does the USA have the ability to provide for the fuel needs of hundreds more millions of people who want the American way of life? Oil is already up to $138 a barrel and living in the USA is costly, trying to heat a home in most parts of the USA in the winter require large amounts of heating fuel, and it's really not practical to double and triple our population in a few years by throwing open the doors and letting the world pour in.

Yet there are those who believe there can be no immigration laws of any kind. That anyone who wishes to have a better life must be invited in, even if that better life requires food stamps, WIC coupons, free health care provided by the taxpayers.

And of course those who believe in unlimited immigration for the reasons of cheap labor, would not want any limits placed on their "rights" to order up semi-trailer loads or boatloads of ultra cheap workers. Of course they also don't believe the employer must provide health insurance or legal wages, overtime pay and so on.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,806 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
As I have said time and time again, I don't justify illegal immigration.
I am not against certain laws aimed at curbing illegal immigration, I support targeting employers who discriminate against U.S. Citizens by solely hiring illegal immigrants.
What about employers who hire SOME illegals?

Quote:
However, I speak out against the demonizing of the Mexican people, which I feel is slowly starting to incite a resurgence of Hispanophobia. I am definitely against the targeting and harassment of "illegal" immigrants by vigilante groups, and also the divide it is beginnging to cause between Hispanics and other Americans.
It's hard not to generalize Mexicans and illegals when there seems to be as many or more illegal Mexicans as there are legal ones. Sorry.

Quote:
In my heart, the few criminals notwithstanding, I believe most immigrants are truly here to forge a new life and provide for their children.
Those that came without legal documentation have NO RIGHT to be here.

Quote:
That is my stance, but for that I have been called Anti-American, Racist, Scum, a female?, a worm, and a bunch of other things on this very board.
When you promote illegal alien lawbreakers over Americans you ARE being ANTI-AMERICAN. What was that I read about 'walking like a duck'?
Quote:
While illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be curbed, I don't think this is what so much American anger should be directed at, so much energy wasted on.
Then you are obviously not affected by the wage stagnation being caused by so many millions of illegals now in competition for YOUR job.

Quote:
I feel that these immigrants, the majority of which are good people, are scapegoats for the much larger problems of this nation. The fear of a different culture(language, customs), the fear of these people taking "our" jobs(through the discrimination of cheap employers) is hardly enough reason to be so violently angry over someone crossing a line drawn in the sand.
Good people or not, they're causing MAJOR problems in a country NOT their own and the OWNERS of said country are reaching their 'tolerance limit'.


Quote:
I, an American who's family could be considered recent immigrants am very involved in this topic because I feel an affinity with the struggling immigrant.
But why are so many American's violently angry about this? So engrossed in this debate?
To answer 'Why' all you need do is look at the thousands of posts from people who've been negatively affected by it.


Quote:
I feel that it is a distraction for the other problems of this nation. As our economy falls deeper into a recession, as our nation debt climbs higher and higher while we wage illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the price of oil soars, we torture people in places like Guantanamo Bay, our government passes laws allowing torture of Muslim people SUSPECTED of terrorist ties, our government is locking up people with no charges for several years, our own rights are being violated using the excuse of our safety(patriot act), suspicion rising over 9/11 and the reasons for invading Iraq etc etc etc.

what better place to point the finger at than the brown-skinned, Spanish speaking "invaders", or as people like AzBear likes to call them, "the Menace" ?
Trying to excuse one problem by laundry-listing OTHER problems is disingenuous.

Quote:
A dirty, foreign, Alien horde, that refuses to accept good old fashioned American principles this nation was built on! They burn Old Glory, they rape our women, kill our bright youth. Form gangs that terrorize "our" streets, and take the jobs from the Average Joes of this fine country.
BINGO!!!
Quote:
RENCONQUISTA! They want to fill our cities and overcome our nation, and when they are on every street corner, and packed 50 people in the house next to you, then they will enslave us and make us part of the "craphole" country Mexico!
We're ALREADY enslaved through the hundreds of billions of tax dollars we spend annually to subsidize this literal invasion.
Quote:
They are racist against us and our way of lifeIllegals. Racists. Menace. Invaders. Criminals. Gangmembers. Rapists. Murderers. Dirty. Aliens. Thieves. Hell, even White Supremacists.!
Correct! Has somone been pumping you full of sodium pentathol today?

Quote:
Pretty convenient. What a perfect enemy to unify the American people, and get these unified Americans backs turned to the real problems of this country, and against a tangible enemy. Gangbanging ghetto dwellers AND white supremacists! The poorest people in this country AND sucking our economy dry! Perfect! The swiss army knife of distractions!

Feel like your being a little discriminatory? Dont worry about it! Theyre racists, remember? You cant be racist against racists! Its impossible! In fact, their not even a race! Go stick a video camera in some laborers face until they get irritated and punch you in the face so you can cry assault to the nearest police officer already, you silly kid!

Anyways, as this post started, just as food for thought, i'd like to show you this video. Yeah, its an annoying cartoon, but watch it through and listen to what it says...as annoying as the animation is, it has some arguments..
It kind of aims to justify illegal immigration, which I don't agree with, but it makes some valid points on who the "enemy" is, and how we see them and why.
I know most of you will be seeing red when it comes to some of the things brought up, but listen to it and watch. Keep an open mind and listen to another argument besides your own.


YouTube - How to Solve Illegal Immigration
I'm not seeing red, but the rest of this diatribe doesn't really merit a detailed response. Try again.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:35 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
Reputation: 2873
Are Mexicans becoming the scapegoats for a failing economy? An unpopular war? Are Mexicans being used as a diversion from problems facing our country?
I don't think so.
I do think that if the face of illegal immigration is often that of a Mexican face ---- it is due to the Mexicans themselves, their parades their marches etc... The most vocal of illegal immigrants are Mexican, and they are not asking but demanding the same rights granted citizens without the same responsibilities. And that pisses people off, and rightly so. If Mexican immigrants are feeling a backlash it is one that they themselves created.
I am not defending bigotry or racism by any means. All the same you have to recognize the effects of a large group of people flying their host countries flag upside down, demanding Spanish be spoken to accomadate them, demanding demanding demanding.
At which point does the illegal Mexican population in this country take responsibility for their own negative press?
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Old 06-07-2008, 10:05 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
AS I've said before, to the point of sounding monotonous, I've known illegals for decades. I've helped them, they've helped me. I've been to their family functions, and they've been to mine. THere are a NUMBER of people among my family and loved ones whose parents came illegally, years ago, in a different time. They worked hard, they stayed to themselves, they "liked" being here (as many of them told me, in many different ways) and MOST of them pushed their kids to learn English.They really did, at that time "do the work Americans wouldn't do", they got along well in the community, and I can honestly say they were accepted by pretty much everyone. That has been my experience, at least.

Today, all this has changed. The economy has changed, the illegals have changed, Mexico has changed, and (very importantly), our ability to absorb unskilled labor has MASSIVELY changed, at the same time that our concept of the "social safety net" has. Today, illegals DO work in many fields where they've undercut American labor, and they DO qualify for many benefits, and cause many expenses that must be borne by all of us...and the cheerful sense of "gratitude"? That seems to have disappeared years ago. That's the society we ALL now live in...not a lot of gratitude from anyone, and certainly not from the illegals.

Don't want to go on and on here...just to make the point that illegal immigration is like any NUMBER of social "phenomena" one could mention..it once happened, it involved some laws being broken, butit was generally tolerated as a 'victimless crime', and everybody in that time saw it as a 'win-win' situation.

That time has now passed. Illegal immigration is no longer 'harmless', it's no longer "OK", and it does hurt people. Worse yet, the illegals THEMSELVES don't even seem to be benefitting.. they are MUCH angrier now that ever in my memory.

It's just not working.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
You are undoubtedly sincere, and I commend you for that. However, your heritage and relationship with Mexican illegal aliens has blinded you to the real problems created by this massive invasion. Yes, I said invasion. Had millions of Mexicans crossed our border on a given day or during the course of a weekend, few would consider it anything but an invasion. The fact that they have entered over a extended period does not negate this fact.

As mentioned ad nauseam, our needs have changed. There are currently over 8 million U.S. citizens eligible for unemployment benefits. There are millions more unemployed but excluded from the reported unemployment figures. Each month another large corporation announces massive layoffs. We simply have no need for millions of low-skilled, illiterate illegal aliens.

Why not encourage them to fight for improvements in Mexico? Where is the outrage over the inhumane treatment of these “immigrants” in their own country? I’m sorry, but the U.S. is not responsible for the impoverished citizens of Mexico or any other country. We have had enough, and our patience is waning.

I posed a question to illegal alien apologists, but have yet to receive a response. I ask again. All things being equal; if the millions of illegal alien ‘Hispanics’ were instead African or Haitian, would you still feel the same level of compassion and concern? Would you still welcome them and feel such intense desire for them to be granted a path to citizenship? Can you “honestly” answer yes?
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