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Old 06-13-2008, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
I get what you're saying. But there are those who then use what you say as an excuse to throw restraint to the wind and say some stupid and embarrassing things that discredit the movement.

I guess what I want is: "Don't say anything stupid or xenophobic! Don't throw personal attacks! Stick to the laws, rules, and the breaking of them and throw in appreciation and admiration for legals!" Add legals' standing up for the process they sacrificed for, and I think it's a better strategy than what the media is portraying now. And that gets into the media bias. But I just don't think the "false conservatives" or so-called "cultural conservatives" have shown an ability to look past their emotions.
The problem with this approach is that you are dealing with a group of people who simply do not care that they have broken the law. If tell them the rules and laws must be obeyed, you will be met with a number of responses, including:

1. The gringo stole our land! (my personal favorite) There are a significant (IMO) number of illegal aliens and their supporters who insist that Europeans (or basically anyone who is not hispanic) are the TRUE invaders- this is THEIR continent and WE need to get out. They will tell you that they did not cross the border, the border crossed them and so forth. Here are MECHa's thoughts on the subject. (MECHa is an organization based on college campuses and affiliated with LaRaza)

Quote:
The organization's revolutionary philosophy and intent to retake the Chicano homeland of Aztlan were spelled out in its El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan (The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan). "Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans," the MEChA manifesto says. "We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent. Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner 'gabacho' who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."
Sponsoring the revolution: illegal immigrants are pawns in a game aimed at fomenting revolution and funded by the nation's major tax-exempt foundations | New American, The | Find Articles at BNET.com

2. You will be asked if YOU have ever driven one MPH over the speed limit, left your car parked in a space after the time had run out on the meter, had an overdue library book, etc. The implication being that since the average citizen has invariably at some point broken a law of some sort, we have no right to expect them to obey ANY of our laws.

3. You will be told that US immigration law should rightfully be ignored because they are only here to feed their starving families, all they want is a part of the American Dream, America is a land of immigrants, our ancestors came here 'illegally', they are here to do the jobs Americans will not do, the economy would collapse without them, no human being is illegal- I am sure I am forgetting a few, perhaps someone could help me out.

In short, in this case I fear that an appeal to the necessity of obeying the rule of law is not going to work.


Quote:
I think we both want the same thing. I predict if we let cultural conservatives guide the argument against illegal immigration, too much expressed negative emotion against illegal immigration (i.e. this is MY country, that kind of bs, where "my" is interpreted as "white" and we all know that's how it's interpreted, we can predict it, and no matter how much we can claim or even prove it isn't, the mere prediction that that is how it will be interpreted should be enough for smart defenders of legal immigration to refrain from resorting to that justification for the cause).
No, we don't 'all know that's how it's interpreted'. You may be surprised at the number of people OTW (other than whites) who are involved in the fight against illegal immigration. African Americans have seen their neighborhoods taken over in LA, hispanic- American immigrants who have come to the US legally suffer unwarranted backlash because of the antics of the illegals, Americans who have come to the US legally worry that there will be calls to stop legal immigration, too. The media can try to spin the efforts to stop illegal immigration as solely the works of the white devil, but they are lying and they know it.
This is my country. I will stand with Americans of any color to defend her.


Quote:
I don't want blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants. I REALLY, REALLY DON'T. There are just some (actually many), whom I just want to shut the eff up. They're effing it up for legal immigrants. Please, we all know who these people are. They are our neighbors, and maybe they're well-meaning. If you want to defend the institution of immigration, the legal process. If you want to show appreciation for the millions who recognize what this nation stands for, and sacrifice to respect it, and create value in citizenship.

Tell those idiots who resort to diatribes, rhetoric, xenophobia to shut up. The "white person afraid of losing his country, or his impression of 50s American utopia" perspectives are illegal immigrants' greatest PR ally. And I know they're not the majority. But they are vocal. And we have to consciously, deliberately minimize and counterbalance their effect on this election.

And then add in the legal immigrants' voices. Do that, and I think we have a great chance to affect both candidates.
I don't call them legal immigrants. I call them Americans.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:04 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,716,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post

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2. You will be asked if YOU have ever driven one MPH over the speed limit, left your car parked in a space after the time had run out on the meter, had an overdue library book, etc. The implication being that since the average citizen has invariably at some point broken a law of some sort, we have no right to expect them to obey ANY of our laws.
.
All these are familiar, well-worn quotes in the endless ongoing effort to make illegal immigration "just like any other little pecadillo"....except you forgot the tried-and-true, "have you ever jaywalked?". ALL of these, of course, represent tiny,temporary, 'fleeting' crimes, and if you want to compare this with illegals, fair enough. THESE crimes, mentioned above, are equivalent to an illegal walking over the border into El Paso, buying a magazine, stopping off for a beer, and returning home. A TINY 'crime", just about like those mentioned above, true? However, THAT kind of 'illegal' isn't what we're talking about, is it?

Want to make a FAIR comparison, using comparable 'facts', between REAL illegals and other non-violent criminals?...Fine !..I have a few suggestions...try these on for size...

(1) Have you ever decided to add on to your home, then proceded to build the new room 6 feet over your property line? When your next-door neighbor then knocks on your door to protest, have you then told him you'll "build your addition as you d*mn well please"....that he "probably doesn't own his lot ANYWAY, because in the past, it was taken from 'the Indians' ".......and that if he doesn't "get the hell off your property", you'll punch him in the nose?....

(2) Have you ever parked your car, all day long, day after day, in your neighbor's driveway? Has the neighbor then asked you to please move it, and you've told him you 'can't', because you want to keep your OWN driveway clear for your guests, and that besides that, your car drips oil and you want to keep YOUR driveway clean? And, if the neighbor then calls the police to have your car towed, have the police told the neighbor there's "nothing they can do", because 'just parking a car' isn't a crime?.....

(3) Have you ever sent your kids to play in your neighbor's garden, because you wanted to 'get them out of your hair'? Have your kids then damaged the neighbor's property, and when he objects, have you ever told him to 'stop yelling at your kids', and accused him of being "anti-kid", and that he "values his stupid old rose bushes more than he does human beings"? And have you then suggested the damage is really your neighbor's fault, because he "should have told the kids not to cause the damage" before they did it....and he had failed to put up any "Don't Uproot The Roses" signs, so how were your kids to know he'd be upset?

(4) Have you ever allowed your 150 pound dog to defecate on your neighbor's lawn, week after week after week? Have you then complained to that neighbor that his lawn "is an unsightly mess", because it's full of dog poop? Have you ever seen your neighbor chase your dog home, and have you then immediately telephoned the police to report on your neighbor for being "cruel to animals"? Has the dog ever BITTEN your neighbor, and you've told him "Tough luck...he's a dog, and that's what dogs do"?

(5) Have you frequently gone over to your neighbor's place and let yourself into his backyard, to make sure that your kids (whom you'd sent over there to play, without your neighbor's permission) were "OK", and weren't being mistreated, and that they'd been fed ? Later on, when one kid gets into 'mischief' and your neighbor escorts him home to you, have you told the neighbor to "get the hell off your property, leave your kid alone, and get his 'f***ing' nose out of your, and your family's, business"?....


If you've done THESE things, then OK, fair enough, you've done "things" that are pretty much non-violent crimes, and, in many ways, are "just like illegal immigration". If NOT, though...if your crimes are things like 'jaywalking' or 'failing to yield', then sorry...you MAY have violated the law...but what YOU did is a LOT different from illegal immigration.

PS (If you've "done these things", you've ALSO probably made your neighbor VERY angry at you, and you're probably pretty well disliked, all up and down the street, too...and this should hardly surprise you)...
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:42 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,748,759 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
All these are familiar, well-worn quotes in the endless ongoing effort to make illegal immigration "just like any other little pecadillo"....except you forgot the tried-and-true, "have you ever jaywalked?". ALL of these, of course, represent tiny,temporary, 'fleeting' crimes, and if you want to compare this with illegals, fair enough. THESE crimes, mentioned above, are equivalent to an illegal walking over the border into El Paso, buying a magazine, stopping off for a beer, and returning home. A TINY 'crime", just about like those mentioned above, true? However, THAT kind of 'illegal' isn't what we're talking about, is it?

Want to make a FAIR comparison, using comparable 'facts', between REAL illegals and other non-violent criminals?...Fine !..I have a few suggestions...try these on for size...

(1) Have you ever decided to add on to your home, then proceded to build the new room 6 feet over your property line? When your next-door neighbor then knocks on your door to protest, have you then told him you'll "build your addition as you d*mn well please"....that he "probably doesn't own his lot ANYWAY, because in the past, it was taken from 'the Indians' ".......and that if he doesn't "get the hell off your property", you'll punch him in the nose?....

(2) Have you ever parked your car, all day long, day after day, in your neighbor's driveway? Has the neighbor then asked you to please move it, and you've told him you 'can't', because you want to keep your OWN driveway clear for your guests, and that besides that, your car drips oil and you want to keep YOUR driveway clean? And, if the neighbor then calls the police to have your car towed, have the police told the neighbor there's "nothing they can do", because 'just parking a car' isn't a crime?.....

(3) Have you ever sent your kids to play in your neighbor's garden, because you wanted to 'get them out of your hair'? Have your kids then damaged the neighbor's property, and when he objects, have you ever told him to 'stop yelling at your kids', and accused him of being "anti-kid", and that he "values his stupid old rose bushes more than he does human beings"? And have you then suggested the damage is really your neighbor's fault, because he "should have told the kids not to cause the damage" before they did it....and he had failed to put up any "Don't Uproot The Roses" signs, so how were your kids to know he'd be upset?

(4) Have you ever allowed your 150 pound dog to defecate on your neighbor's lawn, week after week after week? Have you then complained to that neighbor that his lawn "is an unsightly mess", because it's full of dog poop? Have you ever seen your neighbor chase your dog home, and have you then immediately telephoned the police to report on your neighbor for being "cruel to animals"? Has the dog ever BITTEN your neighbor, and you've told him "Tough luck...he's a dog, and that's what dogs do"?

(5) Have you frequently gone over to your neighbor's place and let yourself into his backyard, to make sure that your kids (whom you'd sent over there to play, without your neighbor's permission) were "OK", and weren't being mistreated, and that they'd been fed ? Later on, when one kid gets into 'mischief' and your neighbor escorts him home to you, have you told the neighbor to "get the hell off your property, leave your kid alone, and get his 'f***ing' nose out of your, and your family's, business"?....


If you've done THESE things, then OK, fair enough, you've done "things" that are pretty much non-violent crimes, and, in many ways, are "just like illegal immigration". If NOT, though...if your crimes are things like 'jaywalking' or 'failing to yield', then sorry...you MAY have violated the law...but what YOU did is a LOT different from illegal immigration.

PS (If you've "done these things", you've ALSO probably made your neighbor VERY angry at you, and you're probably pretty well disliked, all up and down the street, too...and this should hardly surprise you)...

Yes, I had forgotten about the very important crime of jaywalking. Thank you for reminding me.

Here is an addition for your list.

6. Do you routinely go over and help yourself to your neighbor's pruning shears, lawn mower, rake and other yard tools because he had let the previous owner of your house use them? Are you aware that the neighbor had given the previous owner PERMISSION to use his mower and rake and he has never given you anything of the sort? Do you care? (I think we both know the answer to that question)
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:11 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,716,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Yes, I had forgotten about the very important crime of jaywalking. Thank you for reminding me.

Here is an addition for your list.

6. Do you routinely go over and help yourself to your neighbor's pruning shears, lawn mower, rake and other yard tools because he had let the previous owner of your house use them? Are you aware that the neighbor had given the previous owner PERMISSION to use his mower and rake and he has never given you anything of the sort? Do you care? (I think we both know the answer to that question)
Of course he did...we ALL know that our neighbor is a "really good guy", don't we? And certainly a "good guy", willing to lend out his garden tools, is probably the SAME kind of guy who'd also be willing to loan out his car, right? Wonder if the keys are in it?....I'll only need if for a WHILE....today at least..hmmmmm.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,951,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Of course he did...we ALL know that our neighbor is a "really good guy", don't we? And certainly a "good guy", willing to lend out his garden tools, is probably the SAME kind of guy who'd also be willing to loan out his car, right? Wonder if the keys are in it?....I'll only need if for a WHILE....today at least..hmmmmm.
If you really want to get ‘technical’ -- if he is still making car payments, the car ‘really’ doesn’t belong to him anyway. Shouldn’t we all have the ‘right’ to transportation? Why are people so selfish?
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:40 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,716,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If you really want to get ‘technical’ -- if he is still making car payments, the car ‘really’ doesn’t belong to him anyway. Shouldn’t we all have the ‘right’ to transportation? Why are people so selfish?
Sounds like he's probably "denying someone the right to get to work"..or something like that.

(Seriously, none of this is 'funny' at ALL.....these really are things we all hear, every day. It's getting so you can't even 'joke' anymore....because it's not a joke !!)....
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,879,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Your assumption is correct…..w/ sandy hair and gray eyes. My son is fair-skinned, with straight black hair and dark brown eyes; definitely has a ‘Latin’ flair. I find it interesting that my ex has never been broached with the question of my son’s heritage when they are together. People simply assume my son has a “nice tan.” Conversely, I often receive ‘inquiring’ looks, as though they are trying to determine ‘what’ his father is. It’s really never been much of an issue around black people; given the fact that we come in a variety of skin shades and hair textures.

On the other hand; I am your ‘typical’ light brown ‘black’ person; the result of a fair-skinned (half white) mother, and a dark-skinned father. Frequently, when I’m with my mom and my son, Hispanics will ‘assume’ they are Hispanic, and have no problem approaching them with Spanish. It somewhat annoys my mom, who speaks no Spanish; but my son is bilingual and simply takes it in stride. After all, ‘technically,’ he is Latino….well half.
And; along with what you just detailed, Benicar, I saw a young woman today who threw me for a loop.

This lady had the 'curves' of a stereotypical Black woman (very wide hips, very thin waist, large eyes, full lips, etc.)-------and a Nordic White complexion complete with blonde hair and blue eyes.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:33 PM
 
1,028 posts, read 2,038,122 times
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Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Not to be curious or anything, but what DO you want?
It's quite simple: I want the institution of immigration defended against those who subvert the process and against those who want to destroy the institution altogether.

Everything I say and post revolves around that single theme.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:56 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,748,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
It's quite simple: I want the institution of immigration defended against those who subvert the process and against those who want to destroy the institution altogether.

Everything I say and post revolves around that single theme.
Quote:
I don't want blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants. I REALLY, REALLY DON'T. There are just some (actually many), whom I just want to shut the eff up. They're effing it up for legal immigrants. Please, we all know who these people are. They are our neighbors, and maybe they're well-meaning. If you want to defend the institution of immigration, the legal process. If you want to show appreciation for the millions who recognize what this nation stands for, and sacrifice to respect it, and create value in citizenship.
My question is what do you want done with the illegals who are here now?
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
My question is what do you want done with the illegals who are here now?
So the question has changed somewhat. Okay...

It depends if they've committed crimes while breaking the administrative rules of immigration. But at the very least they go to the end of the line after the lawful residents and documented, and face severe fines and return to their home countries to start the process again. They aren't the same as lawful residents, or the documented, or certainly the naturalized. But the reality is there is a spectrum of illegals. The solution will recognize this while putting all of them behind those here legally.

The problem is the xenophobic anti-immigrants who use illegal immigration as a cover for their fear of different languages, religions, cultures, races coming in, in essence they use illegal immigration as a red herring in their plot against immigration in general. The rhetoric attempts to impute the same moral taint to the Cuban political refugee as to the Mexican drug smuggler. Some of the rhetoric imputes the same moral taint to the naturalized Chinese immigrant as to the illegal (particularly when it comes to language, culture).

From practical political strategy standpoint, this plays directly into the hands of apologists for illegal immigrants. They will use this as leverage, they will use this to invoke sympathy. The continuing prejudices that these emotions evince toward the naturalized, the documented, those legally here, will be blurred as equally "unjustified" against the unnaturalized, the undocumented, the illegals -- wrongfully so, but still it will happen and likely work. We know it, just like we know that lots of the "my country" rhetoric will be interpreted as xenophobic. The game plans are out there, the tactics are clear. If we want to prevent further apologists for illegals from expanding their voter base, we can avoid playing in their hands. But most of the cultural conservatives (read, closet liberal Republicans) are too predictable. They will not be able to keep their mouths shut long enough to allow a victory.

The bottom line is that the apologists for illegal immigrants want the undecided voters, the neutral voters, to believe that the main reason people are against illegal immigration is because they are against immigration in general. That is the #1 theme for their campaign. That is untrue for me. So it is a theme that can be neutralized, and they can be forced into relying on secondary, less effective themes that don't resonate on such an elementary, though erroneous, level with the general public.

Conform your rhetorics accordingly...

The bigger question is what needs to be done diplomatically with Mexico. We need to put in place a policy that 1) ends or taxes the revenue flow through illegal labor from America to Mexico, which the Mexican government seems to tacitly endorse, or at least refuses to put a clamp on; and 2) compels the Mexican government to improve conditions domestically in clear ways so it's not as necessary for Mexicans to flee (this is possible, we're seeing it even in Commie China an improvement of living conditions, albeit gradually).
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