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Old 06-20-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Note to macmeal: we had ours as well----------the Civil War of 1861-65.

Some people today are still sore over it----------never mind that not a single person alive today was even around 140+ years ago.

 
Old 06-20-2008, 02:01 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I have no problem with 'cultural genocide' if it means being an American.

Example: banning the genital mutilation of young girls by some 'Muslims' is an example of 'cultural genocide'-----that sort of behavior is acceptable and expected in their culture.

If anything: I take grave offence to using the word genocide in the above context-------it meant the murder of innocent civilians like the Holocaust.
Cultural genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons.
And why on earth would bring up the most horrible example of a culture to make your point?
Are you really that against foreign cultures..?

Well, you did change your last name because it sounded too "ethnic", so I guess I'm not surprised.

There are good things about cultures that aren't American too, Azbear.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 02:16 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

There are good things about cultures that aren't American too, Azbear.
Pretty well a 'no brainer'....and if we see "good things in other cultures" we often adopt them as "ours"...which is really what America is all about. We have a VERY rich culture here, with 'contributions' from all over the world.

Meanwhile, though, are there any "bad things" about cultures that aren't American? And if so, should we as Americans try to 'keep them out', before they get here? And if so, how do we 'keep them out' without sounding like we "hate" the people who want to "bring them in"?

Just asking, in a 'nice' way....if you want to comment, feel free to do so.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Pretty well a 'no brainer'....and if we see "good things in other cultures" we often adopt them as "ours"...which is really what America is all about. We have a VERY rich culture here, with 'contributions' from all over the world.

Meanwhile, though, are there any "bad things" about cultures that aren't American? And if so, should we as Americans try to 'keep them out', before they get here? And if so, how do we 'keep them out' without sounding like we "hate" the people who want to "bring them in"?

Just asking, in a 'nice' way....if you want to comment, feel free to do so.
The way I see it, no matter how much people think otherwise, assimilation is natural. It takes place over a generation, maybe two generations to be completely assimilated.
It just happens.

And in America, we're always going to have some kind of immigrant population. There's always going to be people practicing old world ways or whatever.

But the next generation always assimilates.

Its a process. We don't have to keep anyone undesirable out, or force our culture on anyone to make them American.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 02:40 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
The way I see it, no matter how much people think otherwise, assimilation is natural. It takes place over a generation, maybe two generations to be completely assimilated.
It just happens.

And in America, we're always going to have some kind of immigrant population. There's always going to be people practicing old world ways or whatever.

But the next generation always assimilates.

Its a process. We don't have to keep anyone undesirable out, or force our culture on anyone to make them American.
I understand your good intentions, yet I feel you're overlooking the realities of immigration into a VERY diverse multiethnic society. There aren't many places around the world to compare us with, so perhaps you can be excused.

But I say that assimilation is HARD...it involves conscious effort, and discomfort, and a willingness to change and to adapt.....and I don't think anyone would WANT to go to that effort, unless they thought it was important.

You yourself have asked "what is American culture, anyway?". My point exactly. If we don't even know what we "are", how can we expect others to asimilate? Assimilate to WHAT, exactly?

And if the answer is, "nothing...don't worry about it. American culture can be anything you WANT it to be", then that's really "no culture at ALL".

No one can have it both ways. If "just anyone" can walk in, and 'declare himself' a 'member' (or a 'citizen') then the 'organization' itself is just a myth. It wouldn't work in a business, in a profession, or in a club.....and it won't work in a country, either. Those who are not "in" are out....until they 'qualify'.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 03:35 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I understand your good intentions, yet I feel you're overlooking the realities of immigration into a VERY diverse multiethnic society. There aren't many places around the world to compare us with, so perhaps you can be excused.

But I say that assimilation is HARD...it involves conscious effort, and discomfort, and a willingness to change and to adapt.....and I don't think anyone would WANT to go to that effort, unless they thought it was important.

You yourself have asked "what is American culture, anyway?". My point exactly. If we don't even know what we "are", how can we expect others to asimilate? Assimilate to WHAT, exactly?

And if the answer is, "nothing...don't worry about it. American culture can be anything you WANT it to be", then that's really "no culture at ALL".

No one can have it both ways. If "just anyone" can walk in, and 'declare himself' a 'member' (or a 'citizen') then the 'organization' itself is just a myth. It wouldn't work in a business, in a profession, or in a club.....and it won't work in a country, either. Those who are not "in" are out....until they 'qualify'.

that question was rhetorical. we are such a mixed nation, that no individual culture is the "right" one.

and no assimilation is not hard. its a natural process.

Example being my grandmother and her daughters including my mom. My grandmother didnt have time to push any culture on her kids. she was too busy working sun up to sun down in the fields. all she did was make sure her kids went to school.
my mom speaks fluent english and spanish, despite growing up in Mexican communities surrounded by recent Mexican immigrants and chicanos alike.
My mother is fully Americanized.
My grandmother doesn't speak english. But every morning she's reading the English newspaper.

One generation later, I of course speak fluent english, and can barely speak spanish at all. Despite growing up in Mexican communities.

The story is similar with my mom's peers, and with my peers.


That refusal to assimilate is a bunch of bs. People who live in this country cant choose to assimilate or not to. It happens.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
that question was rhetorical. we are such a mixed nation, that no individual culture is the "right" one.

and no assimilation is not hard. its a natural process.

Example being my grandmother and her daughters including my mom. My grandmother didnt have time to push any culture on her kids. she was too busy working sun up to sun down in the fields. all she did was make sure her kids went to school.
my mom speaks fluent english and spanish, despite growing up in Mexican communities surrounded by recent Mexican immigrants and chicanos alike.
My mother is fully Americanized.
My grandmother doesn't speak english. But every morning she's reading the English newspaper.

One generation later, I of course speak fluent english, and can barely speak spanish at all. Despite growing up in Mexican communities.

The story is similar with my mom's peers, and with my peers.


That refusal to assimilate is a bunch of bs. People who live in this country cant choose to assimilate or not to. It happens.
In the past, this was indeed true. Immigrants were “forced” to assimilate….press 1 for English and 2 for Italian, German, etc. did not exist. Thus, prior immigrants “had” to learn English to work and survive in this country. There also was no bilingual signage. Thus, when immigrants shopped in stores, if they couldn’t read English, they were SOL. Same for product packaging, drivers’ license exams, voter registration forms, hospital patient info, etc., etc.

The “new wave” of Spanish-speaking immigrants have received unprecedented accommodations. Virtually everything is in both English and Spanish. Consequently, there is no “urgency” to learn English. Not only has our country provided everything in Spanish; some jobs even require their applicants to be bilingual (English/Spanish).

Furthermore, the past immigrants had a genuine desire to become “American” and everything it entailed. The fact is; many of the “immigrants” currently in this country do not share that burning desire, and do not feel compelled to become Americanized. Therein lies the problem.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 05:58 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,790,161 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In the past, this was indeed true. Immigrants were “forced” to assimilate….press 1 for English and 2 for Italian, German, etc. did not exist. Thus, prior immigrants “had” to learn English to work and survive in this country. There also was no bilingual signage. Thus, when immigrants shopped in stores, if they couldn’t read English, they were SOL. Same for product packaging, drivers’ license exams, voter registration forms, hospital patient info, etc., etc.

The “new wave” of Spanish-speaking immigrants have received unprecedented accommodations. Virtually everything is in both English and Spanish. Consequently, there is no “urgency” to learn English. Not only has our country provided everything in Spanish; some jobs even require their applicants to be bilingual (English/Spanish).

Furthermore, the past immigrants had a genuine desire to become “American” and everything it entailed. The fact is; many of the “immigrants” currently in this country do not share that burning desire, and do not feel compelled to become Americanized. Therein lies the problem.
Fact from what study, research or source? The same thing you are saying of the immigrants of today, is the same thing they said about the irish, italians etc in the past.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
 
Old 06-20-2008, 06:38 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
I think what really happened back then (though we hate to admit it) is that earlier immigrants were just plain gullible. THey fell for all that "Statue of Liberty" crap, and were so confused, ignorant, and spineless, that they just got "pushed" into giving up their cultures. They're more to be pitied than hated, though. The poor slobs just didn't know any better..they thought they HAD to fit in. Somebody told them they "Had" to become assimilated...and how were they to know any different?

Today's immigrants are just too 'savvy' to fall for that old line. "Assimilate to WHAT?" they rightfully ask..."and who SAYS so"? Darn right.

I think they've "got us", folks....time to 'give it up". The plain fact is, immigrants today just won't be pushed around like they used to....they're WAY too smart for that....and nobody can MAKE them, either. It says so right in the Constitution, The Bill of Rights,and all that other stuff...(can't remember it right now, but I could if I needed to). Legal, SCHMEAGAL....I got your "assimilation" right here.

OK, fellas, you win....I, for one, give up. I can't fool you, and I shouldn't have tried...
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