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Old 06-21-2008, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Except that they have microwaves and cell phones in Mexico and other countries. I don't think figuring those out has to do with assimilation at all.

I think assimilation means feeling a part of American society as a whole, being comfortable in the USA. I don't believe we have assimilated all the people whose ancestry might go back 300 years here.

Assimilation wouldn't have someone making statements like "why would I care what a bunch of white men wrote for a Constitution" yet that's what we hear La Raza types saying very often. They see things in terms of race and that shouldn't be what America is all about. They could care less about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson because they were nothing but evil gringoes, they want to keep Pancho Villa, Che Guevara as their national heroes.

Many "immigrants" coming to day could not care less about what has made this country great, they don't care about the ideals of the Founding Fathers. They have no interest in learning the language of this country, but are motivated only by money to come here.

Not all obviously. I think one of the problems is that most illegals first packed their bags with the idea of returning home someday, coming here to work was just a way to get over a financial hurdle but not because they really desired to become American and give up their own culture.

After arriving here and finding a Mexican community to live in, no need to learn English ever, and no reason to change anything, they decide they don't want to go back home and demand they be given citizenship because there are even more financial rewards in that.

I don't see how anyone can go to live forever in a foreign country and be so unmotivated to ever learn to speak a sentence in the language of that country -- yet we've got "immigrants" who have lived here 20-30 years and have made no effort to ever speak our language.
Pancho Villa and Che Guevera: both of (mostly) Euro White background------ironic icons for the MEChA crowd.

Yeppers: White supremacy seems to reign even in the La Raza movement-----look at the language they have 'made their own': Spanish-----the language of the White conquistadors.

 
Old 06-21-2008, 02:53 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,791,262 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Pancho Villa and Che Guevera: both of (mostly) Euro White background------ironic icons for the MEChA crowd.

Yeppers: White supremacy seems to reign even in the La Raza movement-----look at the language they have 'made their own': Spanish-----the language of the White conquistadors.
Why are you always trying to tie hispanics to white supremacy? lol
 
Old 06-21-2008, 05:01 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Nathaniel Hawthorne, Edgar Allan Poe, Henry David Thoreau, Mark Twain, Herman Melville, F. Scott Fitzgerald, poets Walt Whitman, T.S. Elliott, Emily Dickinson and Maya Angelou. Eleven U.S. citizens have won the Nobel Prize in Literature, including Toni Morrison in 1993. Ernest Hemingway, the 1954 Nobel laureate, is often named as one of the most influential writers of the twentieth century. Popular literary genres such as the Western and hardboiled crime fiction developed in the United States.

Broadway, blue jeans, the Space Shuttle Program, North Carolina BBQ, Mickey Mouse, James Brown, Barbie, Dr. Pepper, Elvis Presley, Bob Hope, Aerosmith, Babe Ruth, crab cakes, Gone with the Wind, Marilyn Monroe, Buddy Rich, Indiana Jones, chocolate chip cookies, Sesame Street, Baseball, the Human Genome Project, American football, Apple Pie, jazz, the blues, Hip Hop, Judy Garland, country music, Ralph Lauren, Starbucks, Jack Daniels, Calvin Klein, Michael Jordan, Dizzy Gillespie, LaDainian Tomlinson, the Chicago performing arts scene, Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, the entrepreneurial spirit, Lucille Ball, Wilt Chamberlain, Hollywood and Vine....

You know, you're right. There's no such thing as an "American Culture."
There is an American culture, but it is made by the contributions of people of many different ethnicities. That was the point.

You mention Buddy Rich but what about Richie Valens? you mention North Carolina BBQ, but what about American inventions like the Margarita or Nachos? American versions of Chinese food and Pizza are as American as the apple bie you mention.You mention Hip hop, which by the way was not made exclusively by Black people but also largely by Latinos, which heavily populate South Bronx where it was born. Along with some whites and others.

The point I was making is, American culture draws from the many ethnicities that live in this country. So whats to say what can be acceptable as American Culture? Just the stuff that has be contributed by other groups up until this point?

Last edited by amc760; 06-21-2008 at 05:16 PM..
 
Old 06-21-2008, 05:22 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Why are you always trying to tie hispanics to white supremacy? lol
I know right? Isn't that weird and annoying?

He can't say Mexican or Latino without some kind of disclaimer saying white or mestizo, and he likes to use Spaniards from SPAIN as examples of Latinos such as a person of Spanish descent(having no ties to Latin America) being an example of a Latino in the KKK.

To some people, its a black and white world I guess. I suspect its a shield to accusations of racism(not that Id even accuse Azbear of that).


And Azbear, Che was more than likely fully European since he was from Argentina. His parents were Irish/Basque.

And I dont think you have any way of knowing if Pancho Villa was "mostly" white.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
Why are you always trying to tie hispanics to white supremacy? lol
Why do self described La Raza type 'Hispanics' who hate 'Whitey' lick the hands of Che and Pancho who were (mostly) White?

If it is not the White supremacist streak in Hispanic culture; what is it then?

One did not see the Black Panthers kissing up to Whites 40 years ago; despite my contempt towards the Panthers------at least they were honest with their racism.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 06:58 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Why do self described La Raza type 'Hispanics' who hate 'Whitey' lick the hands of Che and Pancho who were (mostly) White?

If it is not the White supremacist streak in Hispanic culture; what is it then?

One did not see the Black Panthers kissing up to Whites 40 years ago; despite my contempt towards the Panthers------at least they were honest with their racism.
While Che was white he sacraficed his comfortable life of privilege as an upper class Argentine to lead revolutions in the jungles of South America, Africa, and of course of the poor people in Cuba.

You have no way of saying Pancho Villa was "mostly" white. He was like most of us Mexicans. A MIX. Its a very hard concept for you to understand of a mixed-race group, but it exists. Its not just Mexicans, look at the vietnamese who were colonized and mixed with the French, the filipinos who also were colonized by the Spanish and mixed. It happens when back in the day Europe thought it had the right to take over the world.

But Pancho Villa fought for the people. He seized haciendas from the rich Spaniard-descendant types and gave them to the peasants and the people who fought with him.

I'm not going to try to say these people are perfect as they held to be. But people respect them in those countries, because white or not, they fought for the lower class, for the opressed.


EDIT:
started going off topic and rambling.

Last edited by amc760; 06-21-2008 at 07:20 PM..
 
Old 06-21-2008, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Major Metro
1,083 posts, read 2,060,069 times
Reputation: 353
I have yet to see a pro illegal immigrant supporter make a valid, objective case for why the U.S. should accept illegal immigrants and give them equal rights as citizens. The two arguments I frequently hear are:

First, illegal immigrants do the work Americans won't do. There is absolutely nothing that backs up this theory. Want to prove it? Lets draw the line in the sand on this immigration issue and see if indeed America suffers because all of this work isn't getting done. Do you know how many millions of Americans are out of work right now and more to come with this economy? If our government lessened the handouts, there would indeed be plenty of U.S. citizens (or others permitted to work here) that would do the work that illegal immigrants do. And the sub argument about them providing cheap labor is just a deflection. I believe the free market economy will work all of this out. Besides, if illegal immigrants get the right to earn wages comparable to U.S. citizens (i.e. rights earned under the Equal Pay Act), doesn’t this whole cheap labor argument become moot?

The second common argument I hear is that this group is poor and want a better life and this is what America is all about (country of immigrants). First of all, if allowing law breaking because someone is poor made sense, then you would support that all poor people should be entitled to do anything they want under the mantra of trying to make a better life for themselves (stealing, drug dealing, not paying taxes, etc.). Clearly, you see why this logic won’t hold up. The second part, about America is a country of immigrants. Okay, what about the anti-illegal sentiment contradicts this? The large majority of us that want to enforce our immigration laws are proud of our history of immigrants and have no issue with immigrants that come to this country legally, accept the laws of this country and aim to be productive citizens. We don’t want a barrage of lawbreakers entering our country. If one can ignore one U.S. law, what other laws might go ignored?

So I for one am still looking for a valid argument to this issue and as a black person that is an activist for the rights of all citizens, please spare me the "you must be a racist if you don't support illegal immigrants” argument. Stick to the topic please…
 
Old 06-21-2008, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
While Che was white he sacraficed his comfortable life of privilege as an upper class Argentine to lead revolutions in the jungles of South America, Africa, and of course of the poor people in Cuba.

You have no way of saying Pancho Villa was "mostly" white. He was like most of us Mexicans. A MIX. Its a very hard concept for you to understand of a mixed-race group, but it exists. Its not just Mexicans, look at the vietnamese who were colonized and mixed with the French, the filipinos who also were colonized by the Spanish and mixed. It happens when back in the day Europe thought it had the right to take over the world.

But Pancho Villa fought for the people. He seized haciendas from the rich Spaniard-descendant types and gave them to the peasants and the people who fought with him.

I'm not going to try to say these people are perfect as they held to be. But people respect them in those countries, because white or not, they fought for the lower class, for the opressed.


EDIT:
started going off topic and rambling.
Thank you.

Your post is honest......and, I respect that.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 07:31 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Default First World vs Third...the plain truth

Third world countries can't get ahead easily because of culture, period. It has little to do with race...there are plenty of WHITE third-world cultures (Russia, the Balkans, much of Eastern Europe....until very recently, Ireland....maybe Portugal....)India and China are well on their weay to being NON-white First-World cultures....Japan has "been there" for years...it's not race, it's culture. Think 'primitive', and you'll have a 'primitive' society. Period.

Third world cultures have a hard time prospering because their cultures are organized around competing "groups"..."us" vs "them". In a third world country, oner finds his trust, and his 'backing', among friends, family, and those with whom he has connections..in-laws, etc etc. The rest of society is more -or-less "the enemy". In a third world culture, you just don't (can't, really) trust a stranger. He's got "his" group, and you've got yours.
For this reason, it's hard to organize huge "entities" such as corporations, trading cartels, etc,. because it's difficult to trust strangers.

The hard fact is, if you expect to successfully survive in a "First World culture", you siomply have to learn to place your trust in strangers...those who are "different" from you...different religion, different race, different "tribe". That's what "America" up to now has been based on..the concept of diverse people working at a common purpose.

It's a slow, painful process, with many setbacks. But if you expect a "First World" prosperity, you have to learn to literally "trust in strangers". THat's what it takes. It comes before family, before religion, before 'tribe'.....you have to "be" a citizen, in your mind. Otherwise you'll just be "the Balkans"

Has VERY little to do with race, color, or "who kicked who" around 200 years ago. First World prosperity ande freedom require "First World" attitudes....not squabbling gangs, competing ethnic groups, or over-inflated notions of "disrespect".

If we can DO THIS (all of us), then we'll 'make it'....if not, we can easily 'lose it'. The 'third world" is a big place, and there's plenty of room there for us, when and if we give up on "First World" ideals.

Last edited by macmeal; 06-21-2008 at 07:42 PM..
 
Old 06-21-2008, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Kudos! and rep to prim2007. Unfortunately, many pro-illegals have an allergic reaction to logic.

Kudos! to macmeal (sorry can't rep).
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