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Old 06-21-2008, 08:02 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Third world countries can't get ahead easily because of culture, period. It has little to do with race...there are plenty of WHITE third-world cultures (Russia, the Balkans, much of Eastern Europe....until very recently, Ireland....maybe Portugal....)India and China are well on their weay to being NON-white First-World cultures....Japan has "been there" for years...it's not race, it's culture. Think 'primitive', and you'll have a 'primitive' society. Period.

Third world cultures have a hard time prospering because their cultures are organized around competing "groups"..."us" vs "them". In a third world country, oner finds his trust, and his 'backing', among friends, family, and those with whom he has connections..in-laws, etc etc. The rest of society is more -or-less "the enemy". In a third world culture, you just don't (can't, really) trust a stranger. He's got "his" group, and you've got yours.
For this reason, it's hard to organize huge "entities" such as corporations, trading cartels, etc,. because it's difficult to trust strangers.

The hard fact is, if you expect to successfully survive in a "First World culture", you siomply have to learn to place your trust in strangers...those who are "different" from you...different religion, different race, different "tribe". That's what "America" up to now has been based on..the concept of diverse people working at a common purpose.

It's a slow, painful process, with many setbacks. But if you expect a "First World" prosperity, you have to learn to literally "trust in strangers". THat's what it takes. It comes before family, before religion, before 'tribe'.....you have to "be" a citizen, in your mind. Otherwise you'll just be "the Balkans"

Has VERY little to do with race, color, or "who kicked who" around 200 years ago. First World prosperity ande freedom require "First World" attitudes....not squabbling gangs, competing ethnic groups, or over-inflated notions of "disrespect".

If we can DO THIS (all of us), then we'll 'make it'....if not, we can easily 'lose it'. The 'third world" is a big place, and there's plenty of room there for us, when and if we give up on "First World" ideals.

Some countries have a harder time recovering from colonization that others. Some are lucky to have some kind of resource they can exploit to create an economy(oil, American interests).
Others arent so lucky.

Fact is, colonization had a huge effect on the world. The imperial empires of the past created countries where ever and however they wanted, regardless of ethnicity, religion, or culture of the people within them.

When certain countries within an empire are cut loose, they are many times left in such disarray, that they dont have the means to create a working government or economny. They had no common factor for unity other than being ruled over by the same empire.

China was brought together by communism, and in a way, the People's revolution has kept the country together long enough to last until today where it is now becoming more westernized and becoming better off.
But Africa is the perfect example of colonization gone wrong.
So many different ethnic groups and cultures that were enslaved for too long.
Now you have civil wars, famine, disease, and just an overall horrible situation.

 
Old 06-21-2008, 08:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Some countries have a harder time recovering from colonization that others. Some are lucky to have some kind of resource they can exploit to create an economy(oil, American interests).
Others arent so lucky.

Fact is, colonization had a huge effect on the world. The imperial empires of the past created countries where ever and however they wanted, regardless of ethnicity, religion, or culture of the people within them.

When certain countries within an empire are cut loose, they are many times left in such disarray, that they dont have the means to create a working government or economny. They had no common factor for unity other than being ruled over by the same empire.

China was brought together by communism, and in a way, the People's revolution has kept the country together long enough to last until today where it is now becoming more westernized and becoming better off.
But Africa is the perfect example of colonization gone wrong.
So many different ethnic groups and cultures that were enslaved for too long.
Now you have civil wars, famine, disease, and just an overall horrible situation.
I won't argue anymore. Your version of the world is your right. Place the blame where it seems to go...that's your business.

I still stand by what I said...if you want to "make it" here (you, me, and everyone else), you have to have that "First World" mindset. You have to 'soft-pedal' that ethnic pride, and 'ramp up' that patriotism and 'citizenship'. THat's what a "First World" society IS...(and remember, there really aren't too many of them....we're FAR better off here than the 'average human')....but that's what it will take, if you want to be 'multiethnic', yet still free and prosperous. THat's not "me" talking, that's fact.

"First World" attitudes is what allows an "Irish" cop, and an "Italian" prosecutor, to join forces to put "Irish" and "Italian" mobsters behind bars...it's what enables a "Mexican" contractor to insist his "Mexican" carpenter do an honest job for his "German" customer.....and it allows a "black" parent to ask a "white" school principal to keep a "white" bully from hurting his child..
THe reason all these things 'work" is because these folks see themselves..and each other...as "fellow Americans", and therefore worthy of trust...not as "competing ethnic groups".

THat's how it works...and we have no choice. It's either THAT, or "welcome to the Third World".

AS far as the problems of Africa? Sorry....can't help you with that. It's a rough climate, and a 'tough' place to live...but exactly WHY, or whose FAULT it is? I honestly don't know.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 08:30 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I won't argue anymore. Your version of the world is your right. Place the blame where it seems to go...that's your business.

I still stand by what I said...if you want to "make it" here (you, me, and everyone else), you have to have that "First World" mindset. You have to 'soft-pedal' that ethnic pride, and 'ramp up' that patriotism and 'citizenship'. THat's what a "First World" society IS...(and remember, there really aren't too many of them....we're FAR better off here than the 'average human')....but that's what it will take, if you want to be 'multiethnic', yet still free and prosperous. THat's not "me" talking, that's fact.

"First World" attitudes is what allows an "Irish" cop, and an "Italian" prosecutor, to join forces to put "Irish" and "Italian" mobsters behind bars...it's what enables a "Mexican" contractor to insist his "Mexican" carpenter do an honest job for his "German" customer.....and it allows a "black" parent to ask a "white" school principal to keep a "white" bully from hurting his child..
THe reason all these things 'work" is because these folks see themselves..and each other...as "fellow Americans", and therefore worthy of trust...not as "competing ethnic groups".

THat's how it works...and we have no choice. It's either THAT, or "welcome to the Third World".

AS far as the problems of Africa? Sorry....can't help you with that. It's a rough climate, and a 'tough' place to live...but exactly WHY, or whose FAULT it is? I honestly don't know.
Im not really trying to put the blame on anyone. Im just observing what has happened in a historical context.
I dont think so called "balkanization" will happen in the u.s.

Most of us want to be here. People fighting for rights for their group because they feel their group has been neglected isnt the same as seceding(please don't give credibility to the reconquista nutjobs).

The Balkans didn't want to be a country. So they fight each other.

But those are two different things in my opinion. I dont think anyone can deny that colonization has had a negative effect on some nations.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
"First World" attitudes is what allows an "Irish" cop, and an "Italian" prosecutor, to join forces to put "Irish" and "Italian" mobsters behind bars...it's what enables a "Mexican" contractor to insist his "Mexican" carpenter do an honest job for his "German" customer.....and it allows a "black" parent to ask a "white" school principal to keep a "white" bully from hurting his child..

THe reason all these things 'work" is because these folks see themselves..and each other...as "fellow Americans", and therefore worthy of trust...not as "competing ethnic groups".
Your post sparked a childhood memory. We had a male substitute teacher one day in the 4th grade. I have always been somewhat of an extrovert and raised my hand on several occasions to answer questions. The man became so annoyed he yelled, “Are you white kids going to keep letting this ______ girl answer all of the questions?” We were all so shocked you could have heard a pin drop.

Needless to say, I promptly stood from my desk, and several other kids (black and white) accompanied me to the principals’ office. The principal was livid, and told me not to worry, he would handle it. He later phoned my parents and informed them that the substitute would not be returning to our school. I think the white kids were even more outraged than the black.

Note: All of the teachers and the principal were white.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:07 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Im not really trying to put the blame on anyone. Im just observing what has happened in a historical context.
I dont think so called "balkanization" will happen in the u.s.
I think you're WAY optimistic. In fact, I think that "balkanization" has already begun. WE just won't see it objectively because we're surrounded by it. Can it be turned around? I don't know. We've never done this before.

But I promised not to argue anymore. I hope you're right. I do know if we ever "blow it" with this 200 year old experiment (a free multiethnic society) we won't be getting a second chance. A free, multiethnic society just isn't the "normal" state of mankind. If it ever goes away, I doubt it will be back anytime soon.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:15 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Your post sparked a childhood memory. We had a male substitute teacher one day in the 4th grade. I have always been somewhat of an extrovert and raised my hand on several occasions to answer questions. The man became so annoyed he yelled, “Are you white kids going to keep letting this ______ girl answer all of the questions?” We were all so shocked you could have heard a pin drop.

Needless to say, I promptly stood from my desk, and several other kids (black and white) accompanied me to the principals’ office. The principal was livid, and told me not to worry, he would handle it. He later phoned my parents and informed them that the substitute would not be returning to our school. I think the white kids were even more outraged than the black.

Note: All of the teachers and the principal were white.
GREAT story..thanks for a real-life example to support my 'theory'. You kids were operating at a "First World" level, along with the other adults. That "sub' was stuck somewhere back in the "tribal" stage. Probably ended up selling timeshares, but NOT teaching children.

Good post
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:28 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,272,188 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
As I said, my grandmother still doesnt speak English fluently. She wasn't "forced" to assimilate. Neither were my parents and myself. That wasnt the point. The point is, her kids and grandchildren speak English fluently. And nobody told them too. The immgirant's kids are going to be American either way. They will assimilate no matter what.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "desire" or whatever. Its natural. You can be surrounded by spanish speakers all your life, but if youre young and going to school in America, watching English Movies, watching English TV, your going to grow up American speaking English. Even with univision or telemundo whatever.
You have to trust me on this.
This is very true. Young people assimilate in almost all instances. Many (most?) young "Hispanic" kids who grow up in this country don't speak Spanish well; they overwhelmingly prefer English.
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:33 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,272,188 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Exactly right. Miami is a perfect example. It's becoming less English speaking not more.
Where did you hear that Miami is becoming less English speaking? Other people on this forum (don't think it was you though) concluded this through faulty logic. There was a statistic that came out that said there is a rising percentage of Spanish speakers in Miami; many people falsely assumed that Spanish speaker = non-English speaker and thus falsely concluded that the number of English speakers in Miami was dropping. I don't know if this is your logic; I hope it isn't. We don't need to go over for the 1957th time that many people speak both languages (very common in Miami).
 
Old 06-21-2008, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
To Benicar, macmeal, amc760, etc.:

If there were a common thread between those cultures who make it (and stay on top) and those that flounder pitifully generation after tortured generation---------the common denominator that I can glean is the equivalent of a solid 8th grade education or higher.

One huge reason that Jews as a group (regardless of their ethnicity) do so well is because of the emphasis placed on reading and critical thinking------and, a lack of machismo.

Same can be said about the Chinese, Japanese, S Korean, E Indian, Nigerian, German, English, etc. immigrants who have legally immigrated to the USA over the last 200 years--------all of the above had this 'we ain't gonna be kicked around anymore' attitude (dignity) and 'OMG, the USA is paradise compared to where we came from' (being called an ethnic slur at worst does not compare to being assaulted, robbed, etc. back home).
 
Old 06-21-2008, 10:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
To Benicar, macmeal, amc760, etc.:

If there were a common thread between those cultures who make it (and stay on top) and those that flounder pitifully generation after tortured generation---------the common denominator that I can glean is the equivalent of a solid 8th grade education or higher.

One huge reason that Jews as a group (regardless of their ethnicity) do so well is because of the emphasis placed on reading and critical thinking------and, a lack of machismo.

Same can be said about the Chinese, Japanese, S Korean, E Indian, Nigerian, German, English, etc. immigrants who have legally immigrated to the USA over the last 200 years--------all of the above had this 'we ain't gonna be kicked around anymore' attitude (dignity) and 'OMG, the USA is paradise compared to where we came from' (being called an ethnic slur at worst does not compare to being assaulted, robbed, etc. back home).
All good points.....being "glad to be here", and "happy to be out of THERE" can work as powerful motivators to one's assimilation..or lack thereof. This, by the way, describes most of the "earlier" Mexican illegals whom I was familiar with. Maybe that also contributed to their being far more accepted than seems to be the case now.

Reading, critical thinking? I couldn't agree more.

"Machismo"? No need to even discuss it. Joke about it if you like, even 'admire' it, if you will, but realize that "machismo", broken down into its simplest terms, is pretty much just a "way of insuring that you DON'T get along in a liberal society"..it's a HUGE handicap to cooperation, etc. (Ever hear of a "macho" heart surgeon, or a "macho" astronomer?) Pretty hard to run a "safe and successful" 2-way highway when half your drivers are "playing chicken" with oncoming cars ! You MAY get by, but it just makes life SO MUCH easier if we can put aside the "macho" stuff.
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