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Old 06-22-2008, 07:59 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Where did you hear that Miami is becoming less English speaking? Other people on this forum (don't think it was you though) concluded this through faulty logic. There was a statistic that came out that said there is a rising percentage of Spanish speakers in Miami; many people falsely assumed that Spanish speaker = non-English speaker and thus falsely concluded that the number of English speakers in Miami was dropping. I don't know if this is your logic; I hope it isn't. We don't need to go over for the 1957th time that many people speak both languages (very common in Miami).
Many Americans are saying they are discriminated against in Miami for not speaking a particular foreign language fluently. At one time Miami wasn't like that, Americans could seek work there, it was English speaking. It's becoming less so obviously if English speaking people are unable to work.

 
Old 06-22-2008, 08:04 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
While Che was white he sacraficed his comfortable life of privilege as an upper class Argentine to lead revolutions in the jungles of South America, Africa, and of course of the poor people in Cuba.

You have no way of saying Pancho Villa was "mostly" white. He was like most of us Mexicans. A MIX. Its a very hard concept for you to understand of a mixed-race group, but it exists. Its not just Mexicans, look at the vietnamese who were colonized and mixed with the French, the filipinos who also were colonized by the Spanish and mixed. It happens when back in the day Europe thought it had the right to take over the world.

But Pancho Villa fought for the people. He seized haciendas from the rich Spaniard-descendant types and gave them to the peasants and the people who fought with him.

I'm not going to try to say these people are perfect as they held to be. But people respect them in those countries, because white or not, they fought for the lower class, for the opressed.


EDIT:
started going off topic and rambling.
Fidel Castro is also white. Pancho Villa was probably classified as white back in those times, there wasn't a "hispanic" race until recently. Back then there were 3 races, Negro, Caucasian, Mongoloid so if Pancho Villa would have had to check a box, he would have checked Caucasian.

Hispanic as a separate race didn't happen until the 70's, so now he would have to check that box.
 
Old 06-22-2008, 08:11 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by prim2007 View Post
I have yet to see a pro illegal immigrant supporter make a valid, objective case for why the U.S. should accept illegal immigrants and give them equal rights as citizens. The two arguments I frequently hear are:

First, illegal immigrants do the work Americans won't do. There is absolutely nothing that backs up this theory. Want to prove it? Lets draw the line in the sand on this immigration issue and see if indeed America suffers because all of this work isn't getting done. Do you know how many millions of Americans are out of work right now and more to come with this economy? If our government lessened the handouts, there would indeed be plenty of U.S. citizens (or others permitted to work here) that would do the work that illegal immigrants do. And the sub argument about them providing cheap labor is just a deflection. I believe the free market economy will work all of this out. Besides, if illegal immigrants get the right to earn wages comparable to U.S. citizens (i.e. rights earned under the Equal Pay Act), doesn’t this whole cheap labor argument become moot?

The second common argument I hear is that this group is poor and want a better life and this is what America is all about (country of immigrants). First of all, if allowing law breaking because someone is poor made sense, then you would support that all poor people should be entitled to do anything they want under the mantra of trying to make a better life for themselves (stealing, drug dealing, not paying taxes, etc.). Clearly, you see why this logic won’t hold up. The second part, about America is a country of immigrants. Okay, what about the anti-illegal sentiment contradicts this? The large majority of us that want to enforce our immigration laws are proud of our history of immigrants and have no issue with immigrants that come to this country legally, accept the laws of this country and aim to be productive citizens. We don’t want a barrage of lawbreakers entering our country. If one can ignore one U.S. law, what other laws might go ignored?

So I for one am still looking for a valid argument to this issue and as a black person that is an activist for the rights of all citizens, please spare me the "you must be a racist if you don't support illegal immigrants” argument. Stick to the topic please…
Exactly. There should not be some racial right to break the laws of this country. A Mexican does not have more rights than a Haitian to come here, immigration must be orderly and just.

We simply cannot import the entire impoverished populations of the world and give them all a nice life.
 
Old 06-22-2008, 08:48 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Fidel Castro is also white. Pancho Villa was probably classified as white back in those times, there wasn't a "hispanic" race until recently. Back then there were 3 races, Negro, Caucasian, Mongoloid so if Pancho Villa would have had to check a box, he would have checked Caucasian.

Hispanic as a separate race didn't happen until the 70's, so now he would have to check that box.
I don't know where you get your history, but I can tell you that Pancho Villa didn't check NOBODY'S box.......Pancho Villa would have taken that "box" and told them where to stick it....He wasn't much into any "border formalities", either.

Don't believe me? Ask the folks in Columbus, NM. THey remember him...
 
Old 06-22-2008, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
To Benicar, macmeal, amc760, etc.:

If there were a common thread between those cultures who make it (and stay on top) and those that flounder pitifully generation after tortured generation---------the common denominator that I can glean is the equivalent of a solid 8th grade education or higher.

One huge reason that Jews as a group (regardless of their ethnicity) do so well is because of the emphasis placed on reading and critical thinking------and, a lack of machismo.

Same can be said about the Chinese, Japanese, S Korean, E Indian, Nigerian, German, English, etc. immigrants who have legally immigrated to the USA over the last 200 years--------all of the above had this 'we ain't gonna be kicked around anymore' attitude (dignity) and 'OMG, the USA is paradise compared to where we came from' (being called an ethnic slur at worst does not compare to being assaulted, robbed, etc. back home).
ITA! That is precisely why I have always emphatically stressed the importance of a good education to my son. That’s not to say I didn’t allow him to enjoy his childhood. As a teenager, he also engages in the ‘normal’ activities of other young men his age. However, if the grades aren’t up to par, EVERYTHING is restricted…..PS3, computer (other than school) sports, TV, phone, etc. He has accused me of being “mean” on numerous occasions; but that’s ok, one day he’ll thank me (I hope).

Education is paramount to success, and has enabled countless people to escape from impoverished environments. As a matter of fact; my best friend was raised in one of the roughest sections of Baltimore -- where drugs, violence, and teen pregnancy have traditionally been the norm. She applied herself throughout school, and received a full academic college scholarship (which is how we met), and subsequently received her master’s (summa *** laude) from Johns Hopkins. She is now a successful entrepreneur, with 3 daughters -- 2 have graduated from college; one is currently attending medical school at Emory, and the other recently passed the Illinois Bar. The third daughter will be a junior at Georgetown in the fall. Had it not been for her education, she wouldn't have attained this level of success, nor would her daughters. It is also a testament to the fallacy of “black victimization.”

You’re also spot on regarding lack of machismo -- my ex could be the ‘poster boy’ for that. Despite his Latin roots; Argentine (French/Italian) and his scrumptiousness -- he does not subscribe to the stereotypical “macho” image many Latin men seem to glorify and embrace. I seriously doubt he would have succeeded had he “fit the ‘machismo’ mold.”

Wow! I didn't realize that word (honors description) would be considered inappropriate. On second thought....
 
Old 06-22-2008, 05:39 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,994,570 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I think you're WAY optimistic. In fact, I think that "balkanization" has already begun. WE just won't see it objectively because we're surrounded by it. Can it be turned around? I don't know. We've never done this before.

But I promised not to argue anymore. I hope you're right. I do know if we ever "blow it" with this 200 year old experiment (a free multiethnic society) we won't be getting a second chance. A free, multiethnic society just isn't the "normal" state of mankind. If it ever goes away, I doubt it will be back anytime soon.
And I would say you are being a bit pessimistic.
I think right now there are way more people of different ethnic groups getting a long than are actually having it out.

I've gotten along with people of all races, and Ive had it out with people of all races.

I can have the most heated discussion about immigration and the politics of race in this country, but outside the argument I've never treated anyone of a different group any differently, and vice versa.

Racism is something that is more subtle these days...systematic racism, stereotypes, generalizations, discrimination. But it hasnt exactly turned into all out war.

But definitely, things are progressing more and more, rather than getting worse.
And I dont think the newly immigrated are going to break this country apart. Theres always been groups of people coming here with different cultures, and there kids always end up speaking English and being Americans.
 
Old 06-23-2008, 12:52 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I don't know where you get your history, but I can tell you that Pancho Villa didn't check NOBODY'S box.......Pancho Villa would have taken that "box" and told them where to stick it....He wasn't much into any "border formalities", either.

Don't believe me? Ask the folks in Columbus, NM. THey remember him...
Well yes. I meant though that in those days, if someone like Pancho Villa were checking off what race he was in the USA, he'd have had the three options, if they even used check boxes for race back then. Up until fairly recently there were 3 races recognized in the USA.

In Mexico there were more race divisions way back in the early days when they divided people into Spanish, creole, mestizo, black, mulatto, Indian. Since Pancho Villa lived in Mexico, I guess he had to figure out what box of those to check.
 
Old 08-24-2011, 02:24 PM
 
194 posts, read 284,505 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by ▒etrdsg43¨ View Post
"First they came for the undocumented immigrants, then Hispanics, then all people of color."

That's what we will be sayin if theres no black and brown unity. Some of us need to rememebr Dr. MLK and all he said, cause some of you is like your in 1955 or something.
Roughly put, yet perfectly said. If there is one recurring historical theme concerning the interaction of European-descent caucasian supremacists with other members of the societies that they have lived in, it's the development of a culture of exclusion, subhumanization and exploitation of the first upon the second if they are allowed to nurture it. Refer to the genocide of the Southern Native Americans by the Post-Colombian Spanish colonists during the 1500s, the forceful appropriation of the Northern Native American homeland during the 1800s under the pretext of "Manifest Destiny, the illegal overthrow of the Hawaian sovereignty in 1893, the imposition of military dictatorship and second-class citizenship on Puerto Ricans for 49 years, the forced colonization and oppression of Indochina by the French from the 1800s until 1954, the slave trade in the Americas, the extermination of the Jews in Fascist Germany, the obdurate dominion of India by the British until Gandhi in 1947, Jim Crow politics in the Southern U.S. the placement and support of dictatorial regimes in Latin America by U.S. "Intelligence" agencies from the 1950s to the 1990s, Apartheid in South Africa and many other historical examples. Eurocaucasian-dominated governments have earned the mistrust of their minorities and many other nations of different ethnicities worldwide until they learn to govern by the very basics of fairness and respect.
 
Old 08-24-2011, 02:59 PM
 
387 posts, read 510,826 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by prim2007 View Post
I have yet to see a pro illegal immigrant supporter make a valid, objective case for why the U.S. should accept illegal immigrants and give them equal rights as citizens. The two arguments I frequently hear are:

First, illegal immigrants do the work Americans won't do. There is absolutely nothing that backs up this theory. Want to prove it? Lets draw the line in the sand on this immigration issue and see if indeed America suffers because all of this work isn't getting done. Do you know how many millions of Americans are out of work right now and more to come with this economy? If our government lessened the handouts, there would indeed be plenty of U.S. citizens (or others permitted to work here) that would do the work that illegal immigrants do. And the sub argument about them providing cheap labor is just a deflection. I believe the free market economy will work all of this out. Besides, if illegal immigrants get the right to earn wages comparable to U.S. citizens (i.e. rights earned under the Equal Pay Act), doesn’t this whole cheap labor argument become moot?

The second common argument I hear is that this group is poor and want a better life and this is what America is all about (country of immigrants). First of all, if allowing law breaking because someone is poor made sense, then you would support that all poor people should be entitled to do anything they want under the mantra of trying to make a better life for themselves (stealing, drug dealing, not paying taxes, etc.). Clearly, you see why this logic won’t hold up. The second part, about America is a country of immigrants. Okay, what about the anti-illegal sentiment contradicts this? The large majority of us that want to enforce our immigration laws are proud of our history of immigrants and have no issue with immigrants that come to this country legally, accept the laws of this country and aim to be productive citizens. We don’t want a barrage of lawbreakers entering our country. If one can ignore one U.S. law, what other laws might go ignored?

So I for one am still looking for a valid argument to this issue and as a black person that is an activist for the rights of all citizens, please spare me the "you must be a racist if you don't support illegal immigrants” argument. Stick to the topic please…
US Constitution is for everyone in the US It says no where that it's only for citizens The only part that is specific to US Citizens is right to vote and right to work in a federal job
Even Illegal immigrants have constitutional rights as per US Supreme Court
Here are US Supreme Court cases that says US Constitution applies to everyone in the US
Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886)
Wong Wing v. U.S. (1896)
Plyler v. Doe (1982)
 
Old 08-24-2011, 04:29 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigrs99 View Post
US Constitution is for everyone in the US It says no where that it's only for citizens The only part that is specific to US Citizens is right to vote and right to work in a federal job
Even Illegal immigrants have constitutional rights as per US Supreme Court
Here are US Supreme Court cases that says US Constitution applies to everyone in the US
Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886)
Wong Wing v. U.S. (1896)
Plyler v. Doe (1982)
Illegal aliens are only protected by the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the 14th Amendment, the 6th Amendment if they are charged with an infamous crime, and the Due Process Clause of the 5th Amendment.

As per your assumed link:
Yick Wo was an EPC case
Wong Wing 5th and 6th Amendment cases
Plyler Vs Doe was an EPC case
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