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Old 06-18-2008, 02:37 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
... Collectively, legal Hispanics are not being denied rights afforded other U.S. citizens. By law, they are a “protected” class. As such, it is unlawful for them to be discriminated against in employment practices, housing, credit availability, or any other aspect of life in this country. In fact, they (and other ‘minorities’) have reaped the benefits of laws enacted in response to the violent struggles and sheer tenacity of blacks in this country; as they should, as “legal” citizens.

I would vociferously denounce any form of discrimination against “legal” Hispanics. Moreover, they would have every right to “demand” equal rights in accordance with our laws....
Even though civil rights laws are completely silent on "protected" status for non-citizens, including legal immigrants? Discrimination against immigrants is perfectly permissible, unless otherwise prohibited (based on race, color, national origin, etc.).

If those "'legal' Hispanics" are not citizens what is the justification for extending any right that does not apply to all persons regardless of citizenship/immigration status?

 
Old 06-18-2008, 02:48 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ▒etrdsg43¨ View Post
"First they came for the undocumented immigrants, then Hispanics, then all people of color." ...
Niemöller's corrollary to Godwin's law. Well played. *snort*
 
Old 06-18-2008, 03:12 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
What, exactly, are "our stores?"

Private businesses have a right to sell to whomever they choose, without government interference. It is not the job of a store owner to play INS cop.
The pro-enforcement crowd thinks immigration enforcement is everyone's job. A virtual border in every city, town, and rural highway crossing, and Verichip implants for all citizens at birth is the only way to save us from "invasion".
 
Old 06-18-2008, 03:27 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
Reputation: 18
What was Fobbs thinking using the word blackmail? Blackmail is a threat to reveal a secret unless something is given to "buy silence". What secret were the protesters at the May Day protests threatening to reveal?

I appreciated what he had to say about the civil rights movement and its significance, but I can't accept what he says about civil rights as a legal concept when he can't be bothered to distinguish between blackmail and extortion (presumably what was intended) in his title.
 
Old 06-18-2008, 04:07 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
That is a farce IMHO.

As you pointed out: 'Hispanics' come in all races/ethnicities.

Theoretically; an native born blond haired/blue eyed Argentine of 100% German heritage with the name of Helmut Obermann who is a White supremacist could claim 'Hispanic' here in the USA to avail himself of Affirmative Action.

Yet; an Englishman born/raised in London of Aztec/Spanish heritage (Mestizo) named Jose Martinez would not qualify as 'Hispanic' here-----never mind his dark skin and Indian facial features.
Unlikely. The definition of Hispanic (per Office of Management and Budget) includes persons of "other Spanish culture or origin". Martinez is Hispanic on this basis, regardless of national origin. The definition also theoretically allows a Brazilian, Surinamese, or Belizian to claim Hispanic ethnicity even if not of Spanish origin because they are of "South or Central American ... origin". Oddly, the Dominican Republic isn't specifically listed, but PR and Cuba are.

I would be interested if you have any info on a Soul Man scenario that actually happened.

(Sorry for the multiple postings, everyone. I read a lot that I wanted to comment on from multiple users in this thread alone! I'll check back in a day or two for further enlightenment. Don't make my mailbox pay for my impertinence, please.)

 
Old 06-18-2008, 04:31 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolem View Post
... When people came from Germany and Scotland in the mass immigrations -as well as legal people from other countries they had to go through Ellis Island. They were tested for disease, had to have a sponsor, had to prove they would pay their own way, and not be a burden on society. It was not just all "white" people who came through Ellis Island either. People did not just come here, unlawfully as illegals do today.
Ahistorical, romantic nonsense. European immigrants desiring entry to the U.S. without inspection or payment landed at Halifax, NS and slipped across the border just as today's illegal aliens. (Source: "A Brief Account of Attempts to Control Immigration into the U.S. via Canada" (1902) http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/immigration/outsidelink.html/http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:FHCL:1179393 (broken link))

Some people call them the generation of "good immigrants". Some call them border-jumping scum. Some call them their ancestors.
 
Old 06-18-2008, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by NibblingNed View Post
Unlikely. The definition of Hispanic (per Office of Management and Budget) includes persons of "other Spanish culture or origin". Martinez is Hispanic on this basis, regardless of national origin. The definition also theoretically allows a Brazilian, Surinamese, or Belizian to claim Hispanic ethnicity even if not of Spanish origin because they are of "South or Central American ... origin". Oddly, the Dominican Republic isn't specifically listed, but PR and Cuba are.

I would be interested if you have any info on a Soul Man scenario that actually happened.

(Sorry for the multiple postings, everyone. I read a lot that I wanted to comment on from multiple users in this thread alone! I'll check back in a day or two for further enlightenment. Don't make my mailbox pay for my impertinence, please.)

Alberto Fujimori; a former President of Peru is of 100% Japanese heritage------yet, would be counted as 'Hispanic' in the USA.

Too; not all people with Spanish sounding names have that heritage.

In fact: most males from Spain. Portugal. Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, etc (including most New World Anglos and Hispanics). have the R1B Y Chromosome marker.......and, despite my father being an immigrant from Hungary, I too have the R1B marker------apparently, our common male ancestor hailed from Spain about 30K years ago
 
Old 06-18-2008, 08:49 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Re: this issue about the reconquista.

All this stuff about "brown" people being against "white" people is put out there by a small faction of Mexican-Americans and many "white (both Hispanic AND non-Hispanic)" Americans are afraid by this, and DO NOT KNOW that this attitude is espoused by only a small minority of Hispanics in the US, let alone by Mexicans from the country of Mexico.

It's all a fuss over virtually nothing. I'll repeat what I have written on this forum several times: Mexican immigrants are very much like "ethnic whites" (westerners, Catholics, similar cultural values, etc.) even though there may be a difference in skin color between the two groups. Mexican immigrants seem to love this country and have nothing against Americans.
This pretty well agrees with my experience. I've known 'scads' of Mexican immigrants, legal or not.....quite a few of them on a personal basis. I have NEVER known a "MEChA" type, (with ONE exception, and he's pretty much a joke, and he admits it, in private), and it's my very strong impression that "MEChA" and "Aztlan"-type movements find their strongest support among American-born "leftist wackos", many of them associated with colleges and universities.
 
Old 06-18-2008, 09:27 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,686,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This pretty well agrees with my experience. I've known 'scads' of Mexican immigrants, legal or not.....quite a few of them on a personal basis. I have NEVER known a "MEChA" type, (with ONE exception, and he's pretty much a joke, and he admits it, in private), and it's my very strong impression that "MEChA" and "Aztlan"-type movements find their strongest support among American-born "leftist wackos", many of them associated with colleges and universities.
You mean people like Jose Angel Gutiérrez, tenured professor at the University of Texas in Arlington, founder of the La Raza Unida Political Party, a professor who is teaching "Raza Studies" to thousands of impressionable college students, who professes that "Our devil has pale skin and blue eyes," and whose famous quote: "We have an aging white America. . . . They are dying. . . . They are shi**ing in their pants with fear! I love it!" "We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him," didn't even raise so much as a censure from his colleagues or the college administration, who are paralyzed with fear at the thought of being labeled a racist by this upstanding mentor of young souls? Those sort of people?

Then there is this little gem, "The border remains a military zone. We remain a hunted people. Now you think you have a destiny to fulfill in the land that historically has been ours for forty thousand years. And we're a new Mestizo nation. And they want us to discuss civil rights. Civil rights. What law made by white men to oppress all of us of color, female and male. This is our homeland. We cannot - we will not- and we must not be made illegal in our own homeland. We are not immigrants that came from another country to another country. We are migrants, free to travel the length and breadth of the Americas because we belong here. We are millions. We just have to survive. We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. It's a matter of time. The explosion is in our population."

One of Gutiérrez’s speeches to his students is described as follows:

"We are fed up. We are going to move to do away with the injustices to the Chicano and if the ‘gringo’ doesn’t get out of our way, we will stampede over him.” Gutiérrez also attacked the gringo establishment angrily at a press conference and called upon Chicanos to ‘kill the gringo,’ " which the Raza Studies textbook Occupied America insists that Gutiérrez meant as an analogy to end white control over Mexicans.

People like Gutiérrez are given free rein within the American educational system, and sanctioned with taxpayer dollars to spread their message of hate and oppression. As long as the powers that be continue to turn a blind eye to this sort of hateful rhetoric, the possibility that the "MEChA" and "Raza" proponents will become more vocal and more visual rises exponentially.
 
Old 06-18-2008, 09:30 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post

Macmeal is trying to turn it around and claim that I am encouraging negative views of Latinos or something.

But what I'm saying is that historically, Latinos have been viewed as being "other than white", even if they are listed as so in the census. And thats why historically Latinos have been discriminated in this country.


.
Macmeal is a 'sneaky one', no doubt about it....sometimes he 'says' things, other times he 'implies' them.

Basically, success in the society of the US has ALWAYS, for ALL of us, relied upon two things:

(1) Skin color

(2) Behavior

BOTH of these things have determined the fortunes of individuals in the past. In society, (as on this forum), many of us disagree as to the relative importance of each.

ALSO, each of us has three different 'time slots' we live in..

(1) The past
(2) The present
(3) The future

Once again, we disagree on which of these is the most important in our having a successful life...But I will add at this point that I simply do NOT accept that today's young people have any experience at ALL, or any true concept whatsoever, of discrimination, segregation, or societal racism in their OWN lives..not even close to it. Sorry, but any such notions today, in 2008, are simply disrespectful to those who suffered in the past. It's an attitude characteristic of the 'teenage mind'...(i.e. "MY parents are the WORST parents in the whole WORLD"). Such overblown nonsense only confuses the issue.


FINALLY, each of us ...(apparently, at least), is judged by others in TWO ways...

(1) Our personal example and image

(2) The example and image of our "community" (I have problems with 'community', but it's definitely often mentioned) The "white community"? The "Latino community"? The "gay community"? The "straight male deer-hunter comunity"?....The "anti-illegal crowd"?....Please!!....How many 'communities' are we allowed to belong to? Which takes precedence over which?

There's nothing anyone can do about most of this "stuff". But at least we can force ourselves to agree on "terms", which so far, we don't seem to be able to do very well.

One BIG problem getting in the way of this, as I've often said, is "PC", which wipes out most gradations of degree...thus, "Discrimination" can mean anything from a howling mob of racists chasing a bewildered 'foreigner' out of the neighborhood, to a teacher telling a 'punk' to pull his pants up around his waist....Likewise, "Racism" can mean anything from a company refusing to hire qualified minorities, to a 'nasty' waitress. As long as we speak in words whose meanings are this vague, of course we'll continue to disagree. Putting it another way, YOUR version of being 'marginalized' may just be an altogether different meaning than MINE.

Lastly, not to open up old wounds, but I feel I GOTTA mention it once again...(and some of you KNOW who you are)....If you insist on making the problem of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION into a 'racist issue', then we are simply destined to forever disagree....and you are putting yourselves at cross-purposes with MANY Americans of MANY races....because illegal immigration has only a PERIPHERAL connection with 'race'....the one you want to "give' it. What illegal immigration is, when all is said and done, is a matter of trespass and violation of the law, not a matter of "being the wrong color". And when this 'problem' occurs slowly, over many years, in manageable numbers, then nobody gets too upset. When the problem increases, involving much LARGER numbers, begins to impact society, and gets "out of hand", then the negative reactions also increase....some of them due to 'racism', some due to xenophobia, and some due the just plain 'grouchiness'....BUT MOST OF THEM DUE TO THE FACT that it's a massive case of laws being openly broken, causing problems, and costs, and disruption to society.

And anyone who insists on making this "his" cause, will incur the displeasure and disapproval of his fellow citizens. If that's 'racism', then so be it, I guess.

PS...No, amc, I'm not claiming you're 'encouraging negative views of Latinos' at all...I'm claiming you're grossly mischaracterizing the opportunities for Latinos in today's American society....MOSTLY because you seem unable to differentiate between Americans of Latino ethnicity and foreign citizens of other countries. I don't hold this against you...it's the same mistake many 'racists' make. All I'm saying is, it spoils your credibilty. Argue "Latino rights" all day long if you wish..I'll probably agree with most of what you say. But don't try to include "illegals being accepted as legal citizens". That's not anybody's right.

Last edited by macmeal; 06-18-2008 at 09:40 AM..
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