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Old 06-19-2008, 05:34 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And; most Mexicans take offence to being referred to as 'Indian'--------they use some nonsense word like 'other' to deny it.
I guess my family and I are the exception to the rule then. We acknowledge our mixed roots and our very proud of our Amerindian roots.

I guess every Chicano neighborhood in America that has murals and decorations of Aztec imagery has missed out on that breaking news.

I guess all those radical groups like Mexica and Mecha must invented their ties to indigenous peoples(and made outrageous claims because of those supposed ties).

I'm guessing youre gathering the idea that Mexicans are ashamed of their indigenous roots because of all those German-Mexicans, and racist types that you seem to know.

You must be basing all your views on Mexicans on that select group of people. It's sad, because I feel that you are misinformed on how most of us see ourselves.

 
Old 06-19-2008, 06:02 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
I guess my family and I are the exception to the rule then. We acknowledge our mixed roots and our very proud of our Amerindian roots.

You must be basing all your views on Mexicans on that select group of people. It's sad, because I feel that you are misinformed on how most of us see ourselves.
Ethnic pride is DEFINITELY on the rise everywhere. I'm not sure of your age, but I can assure you what you see today was NOT the case 30 years ago...certainly not in the US, nor in Mexico, either.

Here in the US, "ethnic pride" began taking shape sometime after the civil rights movement of the 60's. Part of it was even due to Alex Haley's documentary "Roots" (1977), which just about EVERYBODY watched. I watched this take place in my OWN FAMILY. In a brief period, "regular Americans" suddenly became "Italian-Americans", or "Irish-Americans", or "one quarter Cherokee". Some people even mysteriously developed 'ancestral accents', like my sister. It was amazing. Many "Spanish Americans" like my childhood best buddy, suddenly became "Mexicans", and many "Mexicans" quickly became "Indians". That's where we got the derisive term "hyphenated Americans".

The "ethnic pride" movement swept the whole WORLD over the next few decades. "Native groups" within countries began demanding 'self-rule'..including Eskimos in Canada ( google 'Nunavut'), eskimos in Greenland, Aborigines in Australia, Basques in Spain, Indians in Alaska, and Scots in the United Kingdom. Mexico was part of this too, and Indian groups (as in Chiapas) began demanding respect. Indian ancestry suddenly became "OK".

Here in the US, "whitey" is definitely on the defensive. He's not too popular just now, and he's 'taking flak' from a number of directions...and that's OK, to a point. If we can all put 'whitey' in his place, but not throw out his notions of constitutional government, liberties, and freedoms, FINE ....but let's be clear...being "proud" of our ancestors is fine...but MOST of us wouldn't REALLY want to live like our ancestors did, or suffer the brutalities of that lifestyle.

Maybe the "white experience" isn't an acurate term at all...maybe it should be called "living in a modern society whose purpose, in THEORY at least, is to gurantee freedom for EVERYONE, under the law...."white" or not. Please don't confuse "white" with "modern-day American"....
 
Old 06-19-2008, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Ethnic pride is DEFINITELY on the rise everywhere. I'm not sure of your age, but I can assure you what you see today was NOT the case 30 years ago...certainly not in the US, nor in Mexico, either.

Here in the US, "ethnic pride" began taking shape sometime after the civil rights movement of the 60's. Part of it was even due to Alex Haley's documentary "Roots" (1977), which just about EVERYBODY watched. I watched this take place in my OWN FAMILY. In a brief period, "regular Americans" suddenly became "Italian-Americans", or "Irish-Americans", or "one quarter Cherokee". Some people even mysteriously developed 'ancestral accents', like my sister. It was amazing. Many "Spanish Americans" like my childhood best buddy, suddenly became "Mexicans", and many "Mexicans" quickly became "Indians". That's where we got the derisive term "hyphenated Americans".

The "ethnic pride" movement swept the whole WORLD over the next few decades. "Native groups" within countries began demanding 'self-rule'..including Eskimos in Canada ( google 'Nunavut'), eskimos in Greenland, Aborigines in Australia, Basques in Spain, Indians in Alaska, and Scots in the United Kingdom. Mexico was part of this too, and Indian groups (as in Chiapas) began demanding respect. Indian ancestry suddenly became "OK".

Here in the US, "whitey" is definitely on the defensive. He's not too popular just now, and he's 'taking flak' from a number of directions...and that's OK, to a point. If we can all put 'whitey' in his place, but not throw out his notions of constitutional government, liberties, and freedoms, FINE ....but let's be clear...being "proud" of our ancestors is fine...but MOST of us wouldn't REALLY want to live like our ancestors did, or suffer the brutalities of that lifestyle.

Maybe the "white experience" isn't an acurate term at all...maybe it should be called "living in a modern society whose purpose, in THEORY at least, is to gurantee freedom for EVERYONE, under the law...."white" or not. Please don't confuse "white" with "modern-day American"....
And; the 'ethnic pride' pendulum is showing signs of swinging back to us simply being Americans here.
 
Old 06-19-2008, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And; the 'ethnic pride' pendulum is showing signs of swinging back to us simply being Americans here.
That would indeed be wonderful. It would also be great if we could simply become “human beings” or male/female as opposed to being labeled according to race/ethnicity. Of course, that will never become a reality.
 
Old 06-19-2008, 09:09 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Theirs nothing wrong with ethnic pride. We don't have to give up our culture to become Americans.
If it wasnt for "ethnic pride", America's culture would be very very bland.

What is American culture anyways?

The only way to stop the so called "balkanization" of this country, is to keep taking more steps in the way of equality.

Yet people seem to be against groups like the ACLU and schools and businesses practicing affirmative action.
But its things like that that make this country a lot better than it was 40-50 years ago.

If there never was "ethnic pride", we'd still have "white" as the golden standard. I dont understand why there's so much anger over so called "hyphenation".

The development of "ethnic pride" has done a lot more good for this country, than it has done bad.
 
Old 06-19-2008, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Theirs nothing wrong with ethnic pride. We don't have to give up our culture to become Americans.
If it wasnt for "ethnic pride", America's culture would be very very bland.

What is American culture anyways?

The only way to stop the so called "balkanization" of this country, is to keep taking more steps in the way of equality.

Yet people seem to be against groups like the ACLU and schools and businesses practicing affirmative action.
But its things like that that make this country a lot better than it was 40-50 years ago.

If there never was "ethnic pride", we'd still have "white" as the golden standard. I dont understand why there's so much anger over so called "hyphenation".

The development of "ethnic pride" has done a lot more good for this country, than it has done bad.
Funny; there was no such thing as 'affirmative action' for Italian, etc. immigrants 80 years ago------they either assimilated (keeping certain aspects of their culture) or went back home to Italy, etc.

Anymore: one need not be 'White' to be a WASP; Condi Rice. etc. definitely qualify as being of that culture.

Just like a person from Mexico, etc. can be 100% 'White' and claim Hispanic.
 
Old 06-19-2008, 09:53 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Theirs nothing wrong with ethnic pride. We don't have to give up our culture to become Americans.
If it wasnt for "ethnic pride", America's culture would be very very bland.

What is American culture anyways?

The only way to stop the so called "balkanization" of this country, is to keep taking more steps in the way of equality.


The development of "ethnic pride" has done a lot more good for this country, than it has done bad.
With all due respect, you're mistaken. "Ethnic Pride" is fine, and will work, as long as we're never again "put to the test". If that happens, we're sunk. (By the way, doesn't it seem to you that 'ethnic pride' is getting in the way of the 'immigration' debate?...maybe just a little bit? ) Ethnic pride works GREAT at Disneyland...but Disneyland has lots of security, and nobody ever gets "mad" there. The real world doesn't work like Disneyland. Things go wrong, and people encounter real difficulties. "Ethnic pride" gets a little silly in the middle of a hurricane...or even in a 'fender-bender' at an intersection.

If we ever do get to the point that things get tough for our nation (war, depression, natural disaster, pandemic), "ethnic pride" could easily be disastrous. Would a "Mexican" paramedic save an "Asian" life? Or would he run off to find more of "HIS" people to help...the "real" people that he truly cared about?..Would an Italian fireman provide drinking water to an injured Arabic earthquake victim? Who knows, when the "big one" comes.If you can't see that, I guess we'll just have to disagree, and hope like HELL we never have to find out whether you're right, or I am.

Your own post is telling. If you really don't know "what American culture is anyways", then in some ways it may be too late.

America was built on great struggle, by people who came here at great sacrifice and difficulty, and yes, they in fact did have to "give up their culture". So much so, that many of them were able to successfully fight a war against "their" people, who at that time were "enemy soldiers". That's right, they "bore arms" against their own ethnic group, because they were able to see themselves as Americans...and apparently had somehow figured out what "American culture was"....and it had become THEIR culture.

You don't hear much about those countries where "nobody gives up their culture" and all cultures are "equal"...because those countries normally don't last very long. It seems like SOME of their people decide that their neighbors may not REALLY be equal after all....so they fall back on their "culture", the neighbor falls back on HIS, harsh words are spoken, and the bullets fly.

Google "Yugoslavia" or the "Soviet Union" for the rest of the story. Those people, like you, asked themselves frequently, "just what IS the culture supposed to be here, anyways...and who SAYS so? and who put THEM in charge"? These people didn't "see themselves" as citizens of a nation, but as members of a 'culture'...and when things got tough, it 'did them in'...

I know you're wrong. Hopefully we'll never have to see it 'proven'.
 
Old 06-19-2008, 10:26 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,993,791 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
With all due respect, you're mistaken. "Ethnic Pride" is fine, and will work, as long as we're never again "put to the test". If that happens, we're sunk. (By the way, doesn't it seem to you that 'ethnic pride' is getting in the way of the 'immigration' debate?...maybe just a little bit? ) Ethnic pride works GREAT at Disneyland...but Disneyland has lots of security, and nobody ever gets "mad" there. The real world doesn't work like Disneyland. Things go wrong, and people encounter real difficulties. "Ethnic pride" gets a little silly in the middle of a hurricane...or even in a 'fender-bender' at an intersection.

If we ever do get to the point that things get tough for our nation (war, depression, natural disaster, pandemic), "ethnic pride" could easily be disastrous. Would a "Mexican" paramedic save an "Asian" life? Or would he run off to find more of "HIS" people to help...the "real" people that he truly cared about?..Would an Italian fireman provide drinking water to an injured Arabic earthquake victim? Who knows, when the "big one" comes.If you can't see that, I guess we'll just have to disagree, and hope like HELL we never have to find out whether you're right, or I am.

Your own post is telling. If you really don't know "what American culture is anyways", then in some ways it may be too late.

America was built on great struggle, by people who came here at great sacrifice and difficulty, and yes, they in fact did have to "give up their culture". So much so, that many of them were able to successfully fight a war against "their" people, who at that time were "enemy soldiers". That's right, they "bore arms" against their own ethnic group, because they were able to see themselves as Americans...and apparently had somehow figured out what "American culture was"....and it had become THEIR culture.

You don't hear much about those countries where "nobody gives up their culture" and all cultures are "equal"...because those countries normally don't last very long. It seems like SOME of their people decide that their neighbors may not REALLY be equal after all....so they fall back on their "culture", the neighbor falls back on HIS, harsh words are spoken, and the bullets fly.

Google "Yugoslavia" or the "Soviet Union" for the rest of the story. Those people, like you, asked themselves frequently, "just what IS the culture supposed to be here, anyways...and who SAYS so? and who put THEM in charge"? These people didn't "see themselves" as citizens of a nation, but as members of a 'culture'...and when things got tough, it 'did them in'...

I know you're wrong. Hopefully we'll never have to see it 'proven'.
My ethnic pride hasn't gotten in the way of my opinion on illegal immigration, as much as it has gotten me interested in it. Because honestly, illegal immigration does not have a direct affect on me.
But when I hear ignorant statement after ignorant statment directed at people of Mexican descent, I get angry.
I'm seeing typical propaganda used to get people against a certain group of people. Word association, calling mexicans racists, dirty, criminals. Its disgusting the stuff I read on this site.

Ethnic pride is great, when people are ACCEPTING of other cultures. But thats not the case in this country. Its MY WAY or the HIGHWAY. According to what people say on this board, a Mexican can't walk down the street speaking Spanish without getting dirty looks from a "real" American. Thats called INTOLERANCE.

And as far as a disaster? You ask if a Mexican would help an Asian or would an Italian help an Arab? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with ethnic pride. That's HUMAN DECENCY. And this illegal immigration debate is causing many people to lose track of what human decency is.

You shouldn't worry about ethnic pride throwing America into chaos..you should worry about the immigration issue causing people to hold American Pride higher than human decency! Thats my true concern, because in the end, it's just a flag representing a government with laws.

And I have confidence people can be proud of their heritage without losing human decency. You must be very pessimistic, and underestimate humans if you don't believe that.

In the time around 9/11, there didn't seem to be any problems of people not helping each other. I dont know what to say about Katrina though.




What you are suggesting, (people losing their culture and identity in order to become "real americans") is CULTURAL GENOCIDE. We don't all have to talk, live and act like a certain group in the United States to be Americans.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
My ethnic pride hasn't gotten in the way of my opinion on illegal immigration, as much as it has gotten me interested in it. Because honestly, illegal immigration does not have a direct affect on me.
But when I hear ignorant statement after ignorant statment directed at people of Mexican descent, I get angry.
I'm seeing typical propaganda used to get people against a certain group of people. Word association, calling mexicans racists, dirty, criminals. Its disgusting the stuff I read on this site.

Ethnic pride is great, when people are ACCEPTING of other cultures. But thats not the case in this country. Its MY WAY or the HIGHWAY. According to what people say on this board, a Mexican can't walk down the street speaking Spanish without getting dirty looks from a "real" American. Thats called INTOLERANCE.

And as far as a disaster? You ask if a Mexican would help an Asian or would an Italian help an Arab? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with ethnic pride. That's HUMAN DECENCY. And this illegal immigration debate is causing many people to lose track of what human decency is.

You shouldn't worry about ethnic pride throwing America into chaos..you should worry about the immigration issue causing people to hold American Pride higher than human decency! Thats my true concern, because in the end, it's just a flag representing a government with laws.

And I have confidence people can be proud of their heritage without losing human decency. You must be very pessimistic, and underestimate humans if you don't believe that.

In the time around 9/11, there didn't seem to be any problems of people not helping each other. I dont know what to say about Katrina though.




What you are suggesting, (people losing their culture and identity in order to become "real americans") is CULTURAL GENOCIDE. We don't all have to talk, live and act like a certain group in the United States to be Americans.
I have no problem with 'cultural genocide' if it means being an American.

Example: banning the genital mutilation of young girls by some 'Muslims' is an example of 'cultural genocide'-----that sort of behavior is acceptable and expected in their culture.

If anything: I take grave offence to using the word genocide in the above context-------it meant the murder of innocent civilians like the Holocaust.
 
Old 06-20-2008, 09:38 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I have no problem with 'cultural genocide' if it means being an American.

Example: banning the genital mutilation of young girls by some 'Muslims' is an example of 'cultural genocide'-----that sort of behavior is acceptable and expected in their culture.

If anything: I take grave offence to using the word genocide in the above context-------it meant the murder of innocent civilians like the Holocaust.
Yugoslavia was, in recent decades, a pretty prosperous place. People had TV's, radios, and refrigerators. Some had AC, and a college education. Many were multilingual....and almost ALL were of similar 'ethnicity'. These were not "primitives" at all. Their 'differences" were cultural, NOT racial.

But they were all INTENSELY cognizant of their own culture. They were not so much "Yugoslavians" as they were Serbs, Croats, or Muslims. They HAD to 'get along', because their dictator, Tito, MADE them get along.

Tito died, the 'gloves came off', and these 'sophisticated people' descended into tensions, insults, and finally violence...over cultural misunderstandings. Serb vs Croat.....Muslim vs Serb, etc etc., each group high on "ethnic pride".

One very touching story came from a woman who had been taken from her home to a 'relocation center' in a school gymnasium. Many abuses and rapes took place in the several months she was held there.

Early on in her 'stay', one day one of the camp 'big shots' came through her sleeping area. Their eyes met. She was shocked and saddened when she recgnized the man as her FORMER NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR....that's right, they'd lived side-by-side for years, until he'd moved away just recently.

He mumbled something about being "sorry about all this, Mrs. xxxx---I really am", as he scurried off in shame. And he never again came through "her" area of the camp.....wonder why?

Were these 'barbarians?'...no, not at all. They were cultured, educated people, who just happened to live in a place where 'ethnic pride' won out over 'shared nationality'. It worked fine under a dictatorship..but when 'things broke down', it fell apart.

Did these people have no "human decency"? I'm sure most of them did. It just wasn't strong enough, though, to stand up to 'ethnic pride'...and when the "stuff hit the fan", ethnic pride won out over everything else.
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