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Old 06-16-2008, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
"the de-Europization of American Christianity"

Wow, those Catholics are really showing us of European descent, aren't they? I always seemed to think Catholicism was brought here by way of Europe - now come to find it is brought to us from Latin America. Silly me.
Actually; the predecessor of the Catholic Church started in the Middle East along with Judaism and Islam.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Actually; the predecessor of the Catholic Church started in the Middle East along with Judaism and Islam.

...but the Christian Churches have been pretty much the cultural fabric of our Western/European civilization for a long time now. Regardless of where it started, it's been a key item in what defines us as a culture. I think De-Europization is a valid term in this case.
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Old 06-16-2008, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Originally Posted by El Rhino View Post
...but the Christian Churches have been pretty much the cultural fabric of our Western/European civilization for a long time now. Regardless of where it started, it's been a key item in what defines us as a culture. I think De-Europization is a valid term in this case.
Maybe.

Another way to look at it is the so-called 'Euro' based societies heading back into the Dark Ages.

Modern Europe is quite secular these days.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Maybe.

Another way to look at it is the so-called 'Euro' based societies heading back into the Dark Ages.

Modern Europe is quite secular these days.

That's only been since after WWII, which is really a drop in the bucket. While most Europeans don't attend church today, it hasn't been long enough to erase the influence of the church in Europe.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Again; why do those putative 'Hispanics' want to distance themselves from Euro culture yet embrace certain aspects of Spanish (Euro) culture?

Flamin' hypocrites.
I think you're joking (but in case you're not), most Hispanic immigrants identify with western, European culture. Even if they are mostly non-white, they tend to identify/stress their white (usually Spanish) ancestry. Hispanics (and I am mainly referring to Mexican-Americans from the SW)who have lived in the US for several generations tend to be different because they actually embrace their indigenous American roots. It's pretty comical to me that often a fifth generation Mexican-American who is 75% white identifies less with being European or "white" than a "brown" Mexican from Mexico who is 75% NON-white. Ironically, these "brown" Mexican immigrants tend to be more in line with the immigrants from Poland, Italy, Ireland, etc. that came 70 years ago than any other immigrant group nowadays. For all practical purposes, they have the same cultural values as "ethnic whites."
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:46 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I think you're joking (but in case you're not), most Hispanic immigrants identify with western, European culture. Even if they are mostly non-white, they tend to identify/stress their white (usually Spanish) ancestry. Hispanics (and I am mainly referring to Mexican-Americans from the SW)who have lived in the US for several generations tend to be different because they actually embrace their indigenous American roots. It's pretty comical to me that often a fifth generation Mexican-American who is 75% white identifies less with being European or "white" than a "brown" Mexican from Mexico who is 75% NON-white. Ironically, these "brown" Mexican immigrants tend to be more in line with the immigrants from Poland, Italy, Ireland, etc. that came 70 years ago than any other immigrant group nowadays. For all practical purposes, they have the same cultural values as "ethnic whites."
how could you tell if they are 75 percent white?
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:04 PM
 
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If it wasn't for "sinners", churches would go out of business. By all means....bring 'em on !!
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
how could you tell if they are 75 percent white?
Because I have met some people like this who, when pressed, will acknowledge that they are 75%+ white. (I have met a couple of "I am Native American, thus more native to this land than you" people in my lifetime who appearred to be pretty damn white to me so I asked them about it.) I used that number just as an example. Actually, there was a survey done a couple years ago in which several thousand Mexican-Americans were surveyed throughout the SW United States, the average racial breakdown of a person surveyed was about 60% white, 35% Native American, and 5% black. In other words, "mestizo" was the average; but of course there was a very large percentage of people who were relatively non-mixed / non-mixed white and also a smaller minority who were majority-Native American. Almost no black Mexican-Americans though; most black Mexicans live by the Caribbean coast in Mexico.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Because I have met some people like this who, when pressed, will acknowledge that they are 75%+ white. (I have met a couple of "I am Native American, thus more native to this land than you" people in my lifetime who appearred to be pretty damn white to me so I asked them about it.) I used that number just as an example. Actually, there was a survey done a couple years ago in which several thousand Mexican-Americans were surveyed throughout the SW United States, the average racial breakdown of a person surveyed was about 60% white, 35% Native American, and 5% black. In other words, "mestizo" was the average; but of course there was a very large percentage of people who were relatively non-mixed / non-mixed white and also a smaller minority who were majority-Native American. Almost no black Mexican-Americans though; most black Mexicans live by the Caribbean coast in Mexico.
No anthropologist at all, but in the past I've worked with MANY a crew "right out of Mexico", (some by just DAYS). And while the "standard" was the stereotypical Mestizo-looking guy, there were MANY variations...red hair, blond hair, freckles, kinky hair. ALL of them from the poorer classes of society, almost all from Mexico. Many freely discuss their "non-Spanish, non-Indian" ancestry. Percentage of racial makeup? I don't know, But there is a lot of variation, in Mexico alone. The variation in the REST of Latin America is probably as great as that of the US.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:23 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Originally Posted by El Rhino View Post
...but the Christian Churches have been pretty much the cultural fabric of our Western/European civilization for a long time now. Regardless of where it started, it's been a key item in what defines us as a culture. I think De-Europization is a valid term in this case.
Reminds me of a FASCINATING piece I read some years after the breakup of the "Iron Curtain" countries in Europe, a few years into their freedom from Soviet domination.

A historian was making a case that there was a "line" across that area (forget just what he called it). To the north and west of this imaginary line, were areas that had ALWAYS been "Christian" in culture, until overrun by the Soviets..i.e., Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, the Baltics, etc.....while to the south and east of the "line", were areas which had been dominated for centuries by the Ottoman Empire (Turks), and had been heavily affected by that Islamic culture (i.e,. Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, etc)


The writer was attempting to show how the "Christian" area was FLOURISHING in its newfound freedoms, and was prospering under the 'refreshing' new atmosphere of independence....while the formerly "ottoman" area was actually regressing backward into a state of poverty and social upheaval, seemingly "missing" the heavy hand of Soviet authority, and not coping too well with "freedom".

Don't know how true this all is, or whether it remains so today...but the writer seemed to be making a case that the "Christian" culture found in the West was far more inducive to free thought, free enterprise, individualism, and prosperity, than was the more repressive "Muslim" culture, right next door.

True? Accurate? I don't know,,,but interesting, anyway.
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