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Old 06-21-2008, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
If that is so, then how come that same anger is not directed towards the employers also? Aren't the employers breaking the law also?
I support employer sanctions - if they knowingly hire illegals - I support closing them down
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Most of these murders are GANG related.
I hope this doesnt get taken in the wrong way, but to be honest, I think even Jamiel Shaw's murder wasnt 100 percent race related.

I think it was mostly gang related.
Ok, let’s say they are gang-related. Does “gang-related” preclude “race” as an impetus? Surely you realize violence can be gang-related and racially motivated. The two are not mutually exclusive. The KKK and Skinheads could also be considered an organized “gang” of white supremacists. The only distinction would be their methodology.

The point I am trying to make, is that racial tension is an integral component of the violence between black and brown gangs. There are definitely “other” factors involved, such as turf and drugs; but you cannot discount race.

For some unknown reason, you seem determined to remove “race” from the equation when discussing gang violence; yet, “race” is always included in the equation when discussing illegal immigration. Why?
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
If that is so, then how come that same anger is not directed towards the employers also? Aren't the employers breaking the law also?
THere's plenty of anger directed at employers....and it's growing, as we speak. So far, though, these employers have managed to avoid the "limelight", and most are not in the habit of holding loud public demonstrations demanding "employers' rights" be honored...therefore the visceral anger directed at illegals has somewhat 'missed' their 'sneakier' employers.

By the way, illegals, TOO, managed to "get by" pretty well in former years, by living "below the radar". They were more-or-less tolerated pretty much by everyone. The widespread anger we see now is largely a product of bold, ill-advised, totally "in-your-face" public behavior in recent years. If employers "acted like that", then they, too would be the object of anger. They're getting there...but much more slowly. They're just 'slicker' than the illegals.
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:51 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Murders are bad; but racially-motivated murders take it to another level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Ok, let’s say they are gang-related. Does “gang-related” preclude “race” as an impetus? Surely you realize violence can be gang-related and racially motivated. The two are not mutually exclusive. The KKK and Skinheads could also be considered an organized “gang” of white supremacists. The only distinction would be their methodology.

The point I am trying to make, is that racial tension is an integral component of the violence between black and brown gangs. There are definitely “other” factors involved, such as turf and drugs; but you cannot discount race.

For some unknown reason, you seem determined to remove “race” from the equation when discussing gang violence; yet, “race” is always included in the equation when discussing illegal immigration. Why?
There are also Latino and Black gangs that are allied, and I don't think its over loving each others race.

for the Latino and Black gangs that are at war, there is a lot of bad blood and hatred between each other, so yeah the obvious difference of race is going to come up. Theyre going to hate everything about the other gang. Mexican gangs are going to throw around racial epithets at Blacks, and VICE VERSA. Such is war, right? Because for a lot them, thats what it is. A war in every sense of the word. Dehumanize the enemy.

Most of the Black people being killed by Mexican gangs are not the most innocent people in the world. They are GANGBANGERS.

I say the same about most Mexicans that have been killed by Blacks. Except of course someone like Kaitlyn Avila who was murdered. She was 3, and I doubt she had the motor skills to thrown any gang signs...But hey, Blacks are incapable of racist violence right? I'm sure little Kaitlyn was tying up a little noose when poor brave Jonathan Banks was forced to defend himself and put a bullet in her chest.
Racism in this country is ONLY directed at Black people. They are after all the helpless victims in this Mexican gang violence.


Look at this for what it is, the victim mentality is a big part of why there is such a divide among Mexicans and Blacks.

Last edited by amc760; 06-21-2008 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
There are also Latino and Black gangs that are allied, and I don't think its over loving each others race.

for the Latino and Black gangs that are at war, there is a lot of bad blood and hatred between each other, so yeah the obvious difference of race is going to come up. Theyre going to hate everything about the other gang. Mexican gangs are going to throw around racial epithets at Blacks, and VICE VERSA. Such is war, right? Because for a lot them, thats what it is. A war in every sense of the word. Dehumanize the enemy.

Most of the Black people being killed by Mexican gangs are not the most innocent people in the world. They are GANGBANGERS.

I say the same about most Mexicans that have been killed by Blacks. Except of course someone like Kaitlyn Avila who was murdered. She was 3, and I doubt she had the motor skills to thrown any gang signs...But hey, Blacks are incapable of racist violence right? I'm sure little Kaitlyn was tying up a little noose when poor brave Jonathan Banks was forced to defend himself and put a bullet in her chest.
Racism in this country is ONLY directed at Black people. They are after all the helpless victims in this Mexican gang violence.

Look at this for what it is, the victim mentality is a big part of why there is such a divide among Mexicans and Blacks.
I am totally perplexed at your interpretation of my posts. I guess it proves we see what we want to see. As much as I thoroughly enjoy a good debate, I refuse to engage in futile adolescent bickering. It’s simply not my style.

BTW, I have never subscribed to the “victimization” mentality; and the word is not even in my vocabulary vis-a-vis black people. You are reeeaaally barking up the wrong tree.

Peace!
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:47 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I agree with you. But I think that what happened to Jamiel Shaw was FAR more a product of racial hatred and intolerance, than the things that are "happening" to illegal immigrants...I'd say most of the unkindness directed toward illegals is "law-breaker related"....yet look at all the people who INSIST that "nope...it's just plain racial intolerance. You don't like illegals because they have brown skin."...riiiiiight....

Off the top of my head, I'd say the Shaw murder was 90% race-related, while the public's growing anger at illegal immigrants is perhaps 20% race-related. "Racism" is what we make it.....and yours may be different from mine, and mine may be different than "his".
Curious, but what makes you draw that conclusion?

Is it because the murderer was Latino? Is it the picture of Shaw in his football uniform, which was the most widely shown picture of him?

Did you know Shaw in some way? See him around the neighborhood a lot, though he was a great kid?

Since its just off the top of your head, is it just because you personally feel that a Mexican, illegal alien nonetheless, coldheartedly killing a bright young star athlete for no reason other than being black sounds just about right?


You want to know how I draw my conclusion?
Its not because, "just off the top of my head" I think Mexicans are incapable of racially motivated murders.

Lets look at this, shall we.

Espinoza, the killer of Jamiel Shaw, was a member of 18th Street. A gang which has very strong beef with Bloods. Im not sure which set, a Neighborhoods set or a Avenues set, dont remember, but its not important.

At the time of the murder, Jamiel was walking down a street in Arlington Heights, a neighborhood that happens to be Bloods territory. Jamiel was wearing a Red belt, which notes Blood affiliation. Im sure youve seen Colors and Training Day or whatever so I dont have to tell you that.

I highly doubt Jamiel was walking down the street wearing that football uniform we see in the picture. And wearing certain colors as distinct as red or blue in certain neighborhoods is enough to get you hit up in LA. People in even the quiet corners of Idaho or as far away as Europe and Japan know this, Jamiel sure as hell knew this.

Turns out, Jamiel happened to have lots of friends who were Bloods. After his death, his myspace profiles turned up. Lots of gang language on there.
Among the stuff written on his page were
Quote:
IM A TRU G ND U DONT NEED TA KNO DA ALPHABETS TA B - SABG!! WUT DO U TELL A BITcKH WIT 2 BLAcK EYEs........NUTH N SMUG U ALREADY TWIcKE!! 30k..eK AIM TRAKKBOIZ]
SABG is the name of a set of Avenues Bloods. Also, Bloods don't like to use the letter "c" so they'll but a K after it to mean "crip killer".

30k means Rollin 30 Crips killer.................and ek means 18th STREET KILLER.

Remember the gang Espinoza claimed? 18th Street.
Who are sworn rivals of 18th Street? Bloods.

What territory was the neighborhood Jamiel was walking in? Bloods.
What group mostly comprises Bloods membership? Black people.

What group did Jamiel seem to at least admire and affiliate with? Bloods.


Something clicking here?

Off the top of MY head, this is what I think happened.
Jamiel was a Black kid walking down the street in a Bloods neighborhood wearing a Red belt. He pretty much looks the part of a gangbanger.
Espinoza runs into this kid who looks like the enemy. He hits him up. "Where you from?"
We know that much happened. What did Jamiel say back? From his myspace, its shown he didnt care much for 18th Street. As any young man, was he prideful? Maybe he exchanged words at this threat.
But Espinoza had a gun, and did what gangmembers do to rival gangmembers. He shot him.

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but I find the whole situation very unsettling.
Chances are, Jamiel wasn't an actual card carrying member. He probably just knew members, emulated them in a way, looked up to them. Ive been there. Its hard to grow up in these neighborhoods without knowing some gangmembers, we grow up with them!
Likely, Jamiel was just going through a phase. He was a promising athlete, and he had a very good chance of growing out of the phase and going on to better things. He was just 17!
But as what I suspect happened, he mightve taken it a little too far. He was probably repping something, and paid for it.
The way I see it, both of these kids are victims of an environment where kids put so much love in something so stupid as gangs and end up dying for it, or going to prison for it. Not to in any way justify what Espinoza did. He killed someone, and he's going to do time for it.


But I dont think the truth is completely out there. I think the media got a hold of this, and made it into the story many know it to be. A bright young kid without a mean bone in his body gunned down by a ruthless Mexican illegal immigrant gangbanger. Another example of "Ethnic Cleansing" of innocent Blacks by evil Mexicans.

I think it's disgusting how people are using this boy's murder to further divide the Black and Brown communities.

And I think it's especially disgusting that the anti-illegal crowd is exploiting this tragic event, as well as the unfortunate divide between Black and Brown people, for their anti-immigrant agenda.

Jamiel Shaw became the poster boy for why Blacks should side against illegal immigrants of hispanic descent, as well as against hispanics in general.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:52 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I am totally perplexed at your interpretation of my posts. I guess it proves we see what we want to see. As much as I thoroughly enjoy a good debate, I refuse to engage in futile adolescent bickering. It’s simply not my style.

BTW, I have never subscribed to the “victimization” mentality; and the word is not even in my vocabulary vis-a-vis black people. You are reeeaaally barking up the wrong tree.

Peace!
I replied to what you said. You feel race is a huge part of these killings and gang wars, and I replied that I feel its just a factor of it. If race is such a primary part of it, why do some black gangs get along with mexicans gangs, and some dont get along?

And I don't accuse you of the victim mentality, but it is in much of the language used to describe the black-brown tension in Los Angeles.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:01 PM
 
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Sorry amc...didn't mean to upset you. I'm just way behind in my knowledge of gangs. I defer to your judgement. Just call me "street-unwise" if you will....
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:39 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sorry amc...didn't mean to upset you. I'm just way behind in my knowledge of gangs. I defer to your judgement. Just call me "street-unwise" if you will....
Its not about street knowledge. Its about taking everyting you read with a grain of salt.
Im not a conspiracy nut, but I know we are being manipulated by the media and the powers that be.

This story was just to good to be true for those who had the anti-illegal agenda.

An illegal alien criminal gangbanger who fell through the cracks in the system. A seemingly upstanding Black youth. The typical all american football playing boy.

Lets emphasize the factors of race in this incident. Lets exploit it and use it to further paint a picture of evil illegal immigrants.

Lets get the support of the black community in our war against illegal immigration.


If this story has truly been manipulated to fit the cause against illegal immigration, what can we really believe? How much of this Black-Brown physical violence is being blown out of proportion consequently creating more tension in their relationship?



It made me sick how all the opportunists jumped all over this event. Jamiel Shaw became a logo.

Just like the event of 9/11 was used by the government to take away some of our liberties with things like the Patriot Act(for our safety), the lost life of Jamiel Shaw is being shamelessly used by people who are anti-Latino and people who are anti-illegal immigrant(two different animals) to get what they want.

JamielsLaw.com
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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I won't argue with you...but the bias I see in the media isn't about "evil illegals"...the bias is TOWARD them....in fact, you'll seldom see the word "illegal alien" mentioned, in my experience, in most mainstream papers. Usually they're just called "immigrants" or perhaps "the undocumented"...hardly what I'd call any 'bias' against them. Most writers go WAY out of their way not to be 'negative' toward illegals....at least in the mainstream press.

NOR for one moment do I think MOST decent people are really trying to "lump all Mexicans" with illegals. More like some Americans lump THEMSELVES in as "allies" of illegals....and this causes other Americans to become critical of them. Many "Mexicans" are really American-born Americans...and see illegal immigration as a "negative' in their lives, as Americans. But you apparently don't hear much about these folks...they don't do a lot of demonstrating.
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