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Old 07-22-2009, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Face Nelson View Post
I have heard of stories in the past of of some Italians and Jews changing their last names to more Anglo Saxon sounding last names in order to avoid discrimination and blend in more.

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Not only Italians and Jews...MANY people with long, 'tongue-twisting' names changed them to 'fit in' better in an Anglo-dominated society. This includes Europeans and others, right up until the World War II era.

This is perhaps the 'down side' of a huge 'experiment', that of attempting to create a fair and equal society made up of all sorts of diverse members from all corners of the world. Can this be 'done'? Can people immigrate here, from anyplace at all, and retain their entire ancestral culture, language, surnames, etc etc, and still 'blend in' with their new neighbors and form a viable, united, 'American' society? There's evidence for both a "yes" and a "no" answer to this...and nobody REALLY knows, because America is still in the 'experimental' stage.

The pressure on new imigrants to assimilate was once intense...now, not so much. Will it "work"? No one knows for sure....we'll have to wait and see.

 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:16 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
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History all over the planet has shown where there were many different cultural and lingual groups existing in one country that wouldn't conform to one united society has been filled with nothing but strife. Do we really want to wait and see if this experiment is going to work here when history plainly tells us otherwise?
 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
"Dirty and ugly" have often been used to describe Los Angeles and Phoenix even back in the days when both cities were overwhelmingly non-Latino white and not without reason (even though both to this day still have neighborhoods that aren't dirty and ugly, but obviously this problem long predates current illegal immigration. If anything it goes back to the mass suburbanization post WW2)

CA does have some nice medium sized cities but except for San Francisco its big cities have long been ugly places even though they often contain nicer pockets amidst the ugliness. This existed LONG before current CA/AZ problems with illegal immigration.
If describing dirty and ugly cities: try virtually every big city east of the Rocky Mountains due to the smog (especially from fuel oil in the winter) and the overall dampness.

When I first saw SoCal back in 1980: what struck me was how clean it was compared to Wash DC--------despite its eye stinging smog.

Phx to me is clean as well---------the same cannot be said for Tucson.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:23 PM
 
31 posts, read 40,654 times
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Quote:
This includes Europeans and others,
If in "Others" you mean Hispanics, than for most of them it would not have made a single difference either way if they changed their Spanish sounding last name or not.

If your average Hispanic changed his or last name to an Anglo sounding last name, his or she would have alot better chance of being confused for a Native American than he or she would of being confused for an Anglo American.

Look at this Hispanic woman for example, if she had an Anglo sounding last name like Campbell, I have no doubt that people would assume she is Native American. After all when the Brits colonized the United States, many Native Americans did adopt Anglo sounding last names.
Moderator cut: copyrighted photo removed

Last edited by Yac; 07-23-2009 at 03:27 AM..
 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,449 posts, read 23,033,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
If describing dirty and ugly cities: try virtually every big city east of the Rocky Mountains due to the smog (especially from fuel oil in the winter) and the overall dampness.

When I first saw SoCal back in 1980: what struck me was how clean it was compared to Wash DC--------despite its eye stinging smog.
If you'd seen NorCal first you probably wouldn't have been so positive on SoCal

Quote:
Phx to me is clean as well---------the same cannot be said for Tucson.
Tucson people are fond of depicting Phx as a dirty, ugly, crime ridden hellhole. It's rare to hear anyone from Tucson saying anything nice about Phx.

From my own personal experience of Phx it's overall reputation for ugliness is deserved just like L.A.'s - however this is not to say that both cities don't have pockets that are quite nice and pretty.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

I'd be interested in your 'take' on the following...when, (as far as you know), was the last big "mass migration" into Mexico? When was the last era when several million non-Mexicans arrived from elsewhere, to set up housekeeping in Mexico, all in a short period of time?
The last big emigration to Mexico was in the 1930s/40s due to Europe's wars and dictatorships during that era.

I don't think the numbers got into "several million" just because Mexico's population was much smaller at that time.

Many Mexicans do believe that Mexico was a better country when it was more open to immigration from elsewhere. In fact had Mexico been more open to immigration longer it would be richer than it is today.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,449 posts, read 23,033,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Typically: the military does indeed get its recruits from areas where there are fewer opportunities for young people (inner cities, Small Town America, etc).

Police work: 'Anglos' are still a larger percentage vs. their representation of the US population as a whole.
The white ethnicity traditionally associated with police work in America isn't exactly too fond of being referred to as "Anglo". As you know having grown up in the Eastern US calling Irish-Americans "Anglos" is asking for trouble.

However police forces in many parts of the US are becoming more Latino, with California leading the way but many Northeast police departments also becoming more Hispanic. Asian-Americans are seriously underrepresented in police forces, however.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 04:05 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,635,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
History all over the planet has shown where there were many different cultural and lingual groups existing in one country that wouldn't conform to one united society has been filled with nothing but strife. Do we really want to wait and see if this experiment is going to work here when history plainly tells us otherwise?
I'll agree that the 'track record' of multiculturalism is pretty dismal. The world is LITTERED with places that THOUGHT they were 'multicultural'...but in the end, they just couldn't overlook their neighbors' different cultures, and this brought about their downfall. What ONCE was Yugoslavia...what ONCE was the Soviet Union...What ONCE was Czechoslovakia...what ONCE was Cyprus...all of these places basically ceased to exist as 'nations', mostly due to the fact of cultural disagreements within their population. No use to even MENTION Israel, South Africa, Iraq, Sri Lanka, Turkey (Armenians?)....or how the modern nation of India was formed from the former 'subcontinent'. In these cases, 'multiculturalism' speaks for itself....(and it's not an encouraging message).

Is a truly 'multicultural' society possible? No one knows. In fact, one magazine last year called the USA "the world's FIRST multicultural society". That may be a 'stretch', (there are MANY places with multiple cultures), but it's at least worth considering.

A NUMBER of places have several distinct cultures living within their borders...Brazil, Singapore, Canada, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Belgium, China, Panama, and a lot of others. The question is, are these "good" places to live? Are their cultures in 'agreement', or are they basically FORCED to get along, due to a repressive government? Are they 'huge' places, or tiny?

Lots to consider here....and how much of it is relevant to the USA is hard to say. The BIG question, in my mind, is "are RACE (ethnicity) and CULTURE two separate things? Is it possible for a multi-racial society to agree CULTURALLY on most things"? As a member of a multi-racial society, and as a partner in an interracial marriage, this is of great interest to me. The answers, at this time, are not clear.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,449 posts, read 23,033,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll agree that the 'track record' of multiculturalism is pretty dismal. The world is LITTERED with places that THOUGHT they were 'multicultural'...but in the end, they just couldn't overlook their neighbors' different cultures, and this brought about their downfall. What ONCE was Yugoslavia...what ONCE was the Soviet Union
The Soviet Union wasn't multicultural in the sense that Russian culture and the Russian language were emphasized as being superior to all other cultures and languages and minorities were expected to discard their own culture and language for that of the Russians.

Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were political constructs.

Quote:
A NUMBER of places have several distinct cultures living within their borders...Brazil, Singapore, Canada, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Belgium, China, Panama, and a lot of others.
Also India, and, on the negative side, China, Pakistan, Iran, many African countries, etc.

Quote:
The question is, are these "good" places to live? Are their cultures in 'agreement', or are they basically FORCED to get along, due to a repressive government?
What's wrong with Canada?

Quote:
The BIG question, in my mind, is "are RACE (ethnicity) and CULTURE two separate things? Is it possible for a multi-racial society to agree CULTURALLY on most things"?
Yes it is, the Roman Empire was proof that a multiracial society could have the same cultural values. In fact a black African who was educated in Athens and thus a part of Greco-Roman culture was considered superior to a white Slav or German who didn't speak Greek or Latin.
 
Old 07-22-2009, 04:19 PM
 
31 posts, read 40,654 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Lots to consider here....and how much of it is relevant to the USA is hard to say. The BIG question, in my mind, "are RACE (ethnicity) and CULTURE two separate things? Is it possible for a multi-racial society to agree CULTURALLY on most things"? As a member of a multi-racial society, and as a partner in an interracial marriage, this is of great interest to me. The answers, at this time, are not clear.
I do not think it is possible for a multi-racial society to culturally agree on most things, atleast not in the U.S.

Issues like illegal immigration, reperations for slavery, the Spanish and English language debate, and affirmative action for example are issues that are doing a good job of keeping Americans divided and not united.
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