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Old 08-26-2009, 04:13 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,070,242 times
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that does not negate assimilation. that jus means they CHOOSE to speak in spanish. but i doubt that everywhere you go hispanics are speaking in spanish exclusively. that would mean that all hispanics speak spanish, and we know that is just NOT true. there are plenty of hispanics in LA(as well as other parts of the state and country) that have been here for generations and generations. the kids dont even speak spanish. generalizations dont work. figure that one out and we might have a conversation going.

and i live in LA. i know. these groups are assimilating faster and speaking english more than previous waves of immigrants. time to check for the links...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
As I said, I live in So. Calif. so I would know. Everywhere you go Hispanics are speaking in Spanish exclusively no matter what generation they are.

Last edited by the one; 08-26-2009 at 04:22 PM..

 
Old 08-26-2009, 04:17 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, we are NOT multi-cultural per se. We have our own unique culture which includes the English language. "Out of many, One". We have always been a melting pot which means adopting the American culture (particulary out in public) while still retaining some of one's ancestor's culture at home if one so chooses. We have always been multi-racial but that is a whole different scenario also.
This makes sense to me. Whether this is the way we continue or not, as I said, remains to be seen.
 
Old 08-26-2009, 05:38 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
that does not negate assimilation. that jus means they CHOOSE to speak in spanish. but i doubt that everywhere you go hispanics are speaking in spanish exclusively. that would mean that all hispanics speak spanish, and we know that is just NOT true. there are plenty of hispanics in LA(as well as other parts of the state and country) that have been here for generations and generations. the kids dont even speak spanish. generalizations dont work. figure that one out and we might have a conversation going.

and i live in LA. i know. these groups are assimilating faster and speaking english more than previous waves of immigrants. time to check for the links...
I disagree. Choosing Spanish or any other foreign language out in public when one knows how to speak English is non-assimilation.

You can doubt me all that you want but liiving in L.A. as you do you should know better. Hispanics and many whom are illegal aliens have taken over L.A. They aren't assimilating as the past immigrants because they have come here in massive numbers from one ethnic group and are colonizing entire neighborhoods and cities now. Their language of choice is Spanish. You fool no one. My ears do not deceive me.
 
Old 08-26-2009, 05:42 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This makes sense to me. Whether this is the way we continue or not, as I said, remains to be seen.
If we don't stop illegal immigration the handwriting will be on the wall. We will become a bi-cultural nation at best or a Hispanic nation at worse and we will resemble Mexico. Hispanics already are the majority iin 22 countries on the Western Hemisphere. Why they feel the need to take this country and change its demographics to theirs also reeks of racism and arrogance. What's next? Canada?
 
Old 08-26-2009, 06:24 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,070,242 times
Reputation: 2244
yes, the sky is also falling...



Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I disagree. Choosing Spanish or any other foreign language out in public when one knows how to speak English is non-assimilation.

You can doubt me all that you want but liiving in L.A. as you do you should know better. Hispanics and many whom are illegal aliens have taken over L.A. They aren't assimilating as the past immigrants because they have come here in massive numbers from one ethnic group and are colonizing entire neighborhoods and cities now. Their language of choice is Spanish. You fool no one. My ears do not deceive me.
 
Old 08-26-2009, 10:27 PM
 
411 posts, read 402,541 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I disagree. Choosing Spanish or any other foreign language out in public when one knows how to speak English is non-assimilation.

You can doubt me all that you want but liiving in L.A. as you do you should know better. Hispanics and many whom are illegal aliens have taken over L.A. They aren't assimilating as the past immigrants because they have come here in massive numbers from one ethnic group and are colonizing entire neighborhoods and cities now. Their language of choice is Spanish. You fool no one. My ears do not deceive me.
I think that when it comes to hispanics there are no molds, or a single stereotype, in most cases, communication in spanish is a choice, in most cases we continue keeping spanish bacause the closeness to ibero-american countries, plus the fact that US has turned into a bilingual nation.
In my personal situation I am still undocumented, however my two adolescent children are born US citizens, it has been a little difficult to
have them keep their spanish, but lately they are more comfortable with
it, I'm working on my green card, but if it doesn't materialize, I'm in good
economical shape, with a nice beach villa waiting for me if needed, while my kids may stay here with my relatives, in fact I'm kind of looking forward to retire in cozumel.
I've been here for 22 years, which have been nothing but prosperous, and I am greateful for that, people have been excellent, never had an episode
where I felt discriminated, although I know that a very small percentage of the population are intolerant. I have in many cases tried to help poor
americans by giving them jobs in my business, in an attempt to give back to the locals, however that has been a little bit hard because they just don't want to work. All in all it has been a very good experience for me and my family,.....
 
Old 08-27-2009, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin King View Post
I think that when it comes to hispanics there are no molds, or a single stereotype, in most cases, communication in spanish is a choice, in most cases we continue keeping spanish bacause the closeness to ibero-american countries, plus the fact that US has turned into a bilingual nation.
In my personal situation I am still undocumented, however my two adolescent children are born US citizens, it has been a little difficult to
have them keep their spanish, but lately they are more comfortable with
it, I'm working on my green card, but if it doesn't materialize, I'm in good
economical shape, with a nice beach villa waiting for me if needed, while my kids may stay here with my relatives, in fact I'm kind of looking forward to retire in cozumel.
I've been here for 22 years, which have been nothing but prosperous, and I am greateful for that, people have been excellent, never had an episode
where I felt discriminated, although I know that a very small percentage of the population are intolerant. I have in many cases tried to help poor
americans by giving them jobs in my business, in an attempt to give back to the locals, however that has been a little bit hard because they just don't want to work. All in all it has been a very good experience for me and my family,.....
And; assuming your info is correct, you are a criminal and belong in a jail cell till your permanent deportation from the USA.

As for that nonsense that the USA is bilingual-------------think again. The hostility towards Spanish speakers is growing and, quite a few of 'em have left the USA. 30-50% of all illegal aliens along with their minor age Anchors have left Arizona in particular.

Re: your gripe about the work ethic of Americans being bad..............it is pretty damn obvious that you hired illegal aliens since the former need not take crap from unscrupulous employers.
 
Old 08-27-2009, 09:54 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
If we don't stop illegal immigration the handwriting will be on the wall. We will become a bi-cultural nation at best or a Hispanic nation at worse and we will resemble Mexico. Hispanics already are the majority iin 22 countries on the Western Hemisphere. Why they feel the need to take this country and change its demographics to theirs also reeks of racism and arrogance. What's next? Canada?
Well, a 'bi-cultural nation' should be a start...since many of us are determined to seek ways to make this a 'multicultural' society.

I've emphasized repeatedly that I don't think this will work....that "cultures", by definition, promote THEIR OWN values, and THEIR OWN viewpoints, not those of 'others'.

It's all perfectly fine to hear stories of a family of assmiliated Indian-Americans, living with a Korean-American family on one side, a German-American family on the other side, a 'nice Hispanic family' across the back fence, and an African-American family across the street...and "everyone gets along fine"....and "they all get together and have block parties and barbecues", and "they're good neighbors". Such stories happen all the time. That's not surprising, because these people are friends and neighbors. They "know each other" personally.

But in the LARGER scale...in a large city...or a school district...or a metropolitan area...when THOUSANDS of people of various cultures share the same space, and the same resources, each group clinging to its culture, and each culture feeling that it's 'special', problems will inevitably arise. That's why we've always pushed 'assimilation' in American society..'Assimilation' is the only way that disparate, varying, dissimilar, potentially hostile 'cultures' from around the world can "get along" together....by 'assimilating' and adopting a certain set of 'common values'.

Today, our society no longer pushes assimilation. We believe that people can arrive here, retain their entire ancestral culture, and somehow just "get along" with numerous other groups, who are ALSO living their ancestral cultures. It's pretty obvious to me that it won't work....and we'll someday come to regret our decision. Next-door neighbors of various 'cultures', can become friends and learn to appreciate each other. Vast groups of strangers, clinging to their various cultures and seeing no commonality with 'the other guy', probably can NOT get along....unless they're forced to by a heavy-handed, draconian set of laws FORCING them to 'leave each other alone'.

Yet that's what we're trying here...to form a 'multicultural society', in which we've convinced ourselves that "we" (in America) really HAVE no culture of our own. Nice idea, but I predict it won't work...and this thread is an example of why. One culture's definition of 'rude and arrogant' is another culture's definition of 'being true to my background'. One culture's definition of 'immigrating any way you can, legal or not', is another culture's definition of 'trespassing and breaking the law'.

And so it goes....many cultures, many definitions of 'right and wrong', of 'appropriate and inappropriate', and of 'dumb and smart'....and each sees HIS view asthe "correct" view...that's what cultures do; they say "the way WE act is 'normal'....and the way those OTHER people act is NOT".

I see no future in a multiracial, multiethnic society without assimilation....I think it's a plan destined to fail....and I say that EVEN though I'm in an interracial marriage, in a multi-ethnic family. We 'get along' because we share our values. That's 'culture'. Give up a common culture, (as we're presently doing in America), and in MY opinion, you're destined to live in a 'fractured' society.

Thanks for listening.
 
Old 08-27-2009, 12:42 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,070,242 times
Reputation: 2244
i dont think so. i think culture is adaptable. even without complete assimilation.

it changes. it morphs.

what mainstream culture or latino or black culture was in the 50's or 70's changed in the 80's and 90's and is different even now. culture changes and people adapt.

we can have many people from all over the world coming here and leaving their imprint on US culture without it being disjointed [or a bad thing].

of course they must follow US laws (and not follow sharia as is the case of a few muslim immigrants guilty of comminting honour killings) and they must learn the common language. but even then, the US vocabulary itself has taken many many words from other languages. they must always be courteous.

society adapts. it changes. and thats fine. i dont think it is a big deal to have futbol be the national pastime, or have salsa be the #1 condiment. societies and communities change.

as long as it is respectful, i am not fearful of that change.

VIVA multiculturalism!
i like passing a muslim youth center, listening to black folk speak spanish, smelling the freshness of the filipino flower shop, waving at the hindu guy at the liqour store, while headed to the cuban bakery. no problem here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Well, a 'bi-cultural nation' should be a start...since many of us are determined to seek ways to make this a 'multicultural' society.

I've emphasized repeatedly that I don't think this will work....that "cultures", by definition, promote THEIR OWN values, and THEIR OWN viewpoints, not those of 'others'.

It's all perfectly fine to hear stories of a family of assmiliated Indian-Americans, living with a Korean-American family on one side, a German-American family on the other side, a 'nice Hispanic family' across the back fence, and an African-American family across the street...and "everyone gets along fine"....and "they all get together and have block parties and barbecues", and "they're good neighbors". Such stories happen all the time. That's not surprising, because these people are friends and neighbors. They "know each other" personally.

But in the LARGER scale...in a large city...or a school district...or a metropolitan area...when THOUSANDS of people of various cultures share the same space, and the same resources, each group clinging to its culture, and each culture feeling that it's 'special', problems will inevitably arise. That's why we've always pushed 'assimilation' in American society..'Assimilation' is the only way that disparate, varying, dissimilar, potentially hostile 'cultures' from around the world can "get along" together....by 'assimilating' and adopting a certain set of 'common values'.

Today, our society no longer pushes assimilation. We believe that people can arrive here, retain their entire ancestral culture, and somehow just "get along" with numerous other groups, who are ALSO living their ancestral cultures. It's pretty obvious to me that it won't work....and we'll someday come to regret our decision. Next-door neighbors of various 'cultures', can become friends and learn to appreciate each other. Vast groups of strangers, clinging to their various cultures and seeing no commonality with 'the other guy', probably can NOT get along....unless they're forced to by a heavy-handed, draconian set of laws FORCING them to 'leave each other alone'.

Yet that's what we're trying here...to form a 'multicultural society', in which we've convinced ourselves that "we" (in America) really HAVE no culture of our own. Nice idea, but I predict it won't work...and this thread is an example of why. One culture's definition of 'rude and arrogant' is another culture's definition of 'being true to my background'. One culture's definition of 'immigrating any way you can, legal or not', is another culture's definition of 'trespassing and breaking the law'.

And so it goes....many cultures, many definitions of 'right and wrong', of 'appropriate and inappropriate', and of 'dumb and smart'....and each sees HIS view asthe "correct" view...that's what cultures do; they say "the way WE act is 'normal'....and the way those OTHER people act is NOT".

I see no future in a multiracial, multiethnic society without assimilation....I think it's a plan destined to fail....and I say that EVEN though I'm in an interracial marriage, in a multi-ethnic family. We 'get along' because we share our values. That's 'culture'. Give up a common culture, (as we're presently doing in America), and in MY opinion, you're destined to live in a 'fractured' society.

Thanks for listening.
 
Old 08-27-2009, 01:49 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
i dont think so. i think culture is adaptable. even without complete assimilation.

it changes. it morphs.

what mainstream culture or latino or black culture was in the 50's or 70's changed in the 80's and 90's and is different even now. culture changes and people adapt.

we can have many people from all over the world coming here and leaving their imprint on US culture without it being disjointed [or a bad thing].

of course they must follow US laws (and not follow sharia as is the case of a few muslim immigrants guilty of comminting honour killings) and they must learn the common language. but even then, the US vocabulary itself has taken many many words from other languages. they must always be courteous.

society adapts. it changes. and thats fine. i dont think it is a big deal to have futbol be the national pastime, or have salsa be the #1 condiment. societies and communities change.

as long as it is respectful, i am not fearful of that change.

VIVA multiculturalism!
i like passing a muslim youth center, listening to black folk speak spanish, smelling the freshness of the filipino flower shop, waving at the hindu guy at the liqour store, while headed to the cuban bakery. no problem here.
I'm not fearful, either..as long as it's respectful. That's a big order, though. What happens when it gets DISRESPECTFUL?

Let's hope it goes well. Recall the current situation in Europe, in which millions of recently-arrived Muslims from 'points East' have settled into European cities, who have NO desire to 'become' European, have NO desire to adapt European 'ways', NO interest in European culture, and NO interest in the European values of human rights, women's rights, or religious tolerance....and many of them are openly CONTEMPTUOUS of Europeans, and are all too willing to say so, openly and 'in your face'...up to and including gleeful predictions of the "demise of Europe, within OUR LIFETIME".

You may ask "why do these Muslims feel this way, and if they do, why did they move to Europe"? And you may ask "Why do these Europeans put up with this hostility, ingratitude, hate, and disrespect from 'outsiders' "....and I would have to tell you, "I don't know....but it SURE doesn't sound like any sort of society I'D want to have happen, here in the USA".

'Multiculturalism' on the level of food, art, or music is FINE. At a deeper level..multiculturalism on the level of morals, values, principles, etc, probably won't work. SO FAR, in the US, our multiculturalism is at a pretty superficial level. If it remains there...fine. If it goes DEEPER....watch out!

"Respect", you say....OK, fine. Respect by WHOM..toward WHAT? How about if the respect isn't returned? How does one even DEFINE respect, in the absence of a common understanding of the term?
For gangbangers and criminals "respect" is simply another term for "fear" or "intimidation". Hopefully that isn't the way MOST of us see 'respect'...but it's an example of how different groups see things from a different angle.

Last edited by macmeal; 08-27-2009 at 02:05 PM..
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