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Old 06-26-2008, 02:57 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,005,884 times
Reputation: 332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sorry, but I don’t subscribe to the “poor me, I grew up in poverty in the 'hood' -- I can’t do any better” mentality. While I certainly recognize the effects of socioeconomic factors, I also recognize the importance of personal accountability and sheer tenacity.

I mentioned my best friend’s accomplishments in another thread; not to “brag” on her, rather, to “applaud” her. She could truly be the “poster girl” for having an “excuse” not to succeed in life. She grew up in a dysfunctional family, in the absolute pits of Hell. I was petrified to even walk from the car to the front door when she took me to her parents’ home. Her father was a womanizing drug dealer (even “hit on” me), and her mother had an addictive personality….drugs, alcohol, whatever. She routinely witnessed junkies overdosing, stabbings, shootings, and explicit sexual activities, which frequently involved her mother. Notwithstanding her daily exposure to these activities, to this day, she has never tasted liquor, nor experimented with any drugs -- not even pot. She didn’t even lose her virginity until her sophomore year in college.

Rather than succumb to her environment, she was determined to “rise above” her circumstances. She could have easily gotten involved with drugs, sex, or gangs. After all, how could she avoid it? Moreover, given her stunning looks, I’m sure she could have had a rather lucrative lifestyle through prostitution -- a “common” practice in this particular section of Baltimore. While others in her neighborhood were hanging in the streets, getting high, getting pregnant, and wasting their lives; she “chose” to study and excel in school -- she “chose” to succeed in life. Unlike those claiming they can’t succeed “because of” their circumstances; she had the determination to succeed “in spite of.”
There are lots of environments like that out there. And while a lot of people stay straight and move on, it makes it JUST a little bit harder.

And those environments breed a lot of violence, and that violence can sometimes affect people who have nothing to do with it.


I'm not from Baltimore, so I dont know how stuff works out there. But in LA and other parts of California, there is gang culture that is a tradition. Theres lots of kids who are growing up around it in their formative years.

But I wasnt saying that to justify what happened, but just to point out that stuff happens.

I have no idea how you can argue that the state of many of these neighborhoods is leading to deaths of many young boys and men.
Good for all the people who make it out of the neighborhood to lead successful lives.
But what about the others? Are they just too weak?

 
Old 06-26-2008, 03:24 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,638,049 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
But what about the others? Are they just too weak?
A rather unfair attempt to force people to "dump on the victim", amc. You want someone to castigate these folks as being responsible for their own condition, because they're "too weak".
I'm not going to 'bite'. But I will say that these people are partially victims, yes. Most of them are young, they have a lot of strikes against them, and yes, to an extent, they're victims.

But mostly they're victims of their own culture and their own parents. Sorry to have to say it, but that's MAINLY what they're victims of..

*Being born to a 16-year old single girl will make you a 'victim', for sure.

*Having no worthwhile male role model gives a young boy a good chance of being a 'victim', too..

*Growing up in a neighborhood in which gang culture is given a lot of "glamor", and a lot of appeal, will make it hard to fit in to 'straight' mainstream society..

*Being told the "cops" are 'out to get you' at every turn, and are your natural enemy, will make it VERY hard to 'stay on the straight and narrow'.

*Growing up in a culture where there are no books in the home, where education and learning are mocked and ridiculed, and "bad dudes" are given a certain respect, and get 'all the pretty girls', will certainly make it hard for a child to be a success later on.

*Having a child out of wedlock is a virtual GUARANTEE that a young woman will have a MUCH harder time 'making it' than she would otherwise..

*Being taught that "it's not our fault...it's the fault of prejudice" is almost a 'death sentence' for the development of any sense of personal responsibility.

*Being taught that a "real man" has a lot of kids by a lot of 'ladies', and one who doesn't is a 'wimp', will make it hard for a young boy to respect women as he gets older.

*Lastly, maybe the WORST 'victimizer' is the oft-repeated 'maxim' that "Poverty Causes Crime". It's almost like giving a 'license to fail'...as if the poor have no choice. And it's wrong, and it's a vicious lie. Poverty does NOT cause crime..CRIMINALS cause crime. THere are MANY honest poor people, and MANY wealthy 'crooks". Crime is caused by a willingness to "turn to it".

Oh--and one more thing...sometimes societal racism causes 'victimization'. But not NEARLY as much as much as "neighborhood dysfunction" and "family failure" do.
 
Old 06-26-2008, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,685,038 times
Reputation: 3785
To distill macmeal's post into one sentence:

The #1 reason that so many kids wind up with a vato/ignorant/PWT metality is because of the parents/immediate guardians are losers-----------not outside society.
 
Old 06-26-2008, 06:30 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,005,884 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
To distill macmeal's post into one sentence:

The #1 reason that so many kids wind up with a vato/ignorant/PWT metality is because of the parents/immediate guardians are losers-----------not outside society.
why are there parents losers?
why are other parents winners?

why is there a higher percentage of parents who are winners in nicer neighborhoods and a higher percentage of parents who are "losers" in poorer neighborhoods? This stuff isn't rocket science man.
 
Old 06-26-2008, 07:02 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,093,233 times
Reputation: 2244
no its not. its about money and opportunities and resources and so many other things that disporportianately affect urban youth. that boot strap mentality is fine, and it works, i stand as that example, but it is not always the case and my cousins stand and rest as that example. these issues are really too complicated.

i appreciate the discourse going back and forth, but i urge everyone out there to get out from behind their keyboard and do something about the violence and poverty and death in our urban communities.

you dont have to march on washington. or anything grand like that.

become a big brother.
big sister.
donate books.
old labtops.
spend time at a park.
a rec center.
and for all those people who complain about immigrants not knowing english or other US custome/values, volunteer as a teachers aide with kids learning english.
donate money.
sports equipment.
become a religious youth counselor.
become a coach

did you know that rugby is being promoted in one of the worst cities in LA county!!! yes rugby with a bunch of black and brown youth in Hawaiin Gardens. the young womans team is already the southland champ and looking for a state title.

imagine that RUGBY IN THA HOOD

for all those who dont have "adequate" parenting. lets do somethign about it.

i urge all of you who decry what you think this city/state/country is becoming to be a part of the solution.

we all know if you aint part of the solution you are part of the problem.

its easy to speak about these issues from afar, but can you adress them in real life? i do my part so that not only my children, but my neghbors children, and those in neglected underfunded communities reach their maximum potential. do you?
 
Old 06-26-2008, 07:03 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,638,049 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
why are there parents losers?
why are other parents winners?

why is there a higher percentage of parents who are winners in nicer neighborhoods and a higher percentage of parents who are "losers" in poorer neighborhoods? .
Exactly !! WHY ?? Probably the single most pertinent question in this whole forum...WHY, indeed?
 
Old 06-26-2008, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,685,038 times
Reputation: 3785
To macmeal, amc760 and the one:

There may be hope yet for many of the above screwed up kids:

#1: the birthrate seems to decline after a generation here in the USA
#2: despite the 'attitude' that many lower class people have against education; typically, the children born or at least raised in the USA (legal and illegal) are usually literate compared to their parents hence the former have a leg up.
#3: this may be off the wall but; more and more researchers are tumbling to the fact that since lead has been banned in gasoline here in the USA for quite a few years now------the kids growing up today------even those with flagrantly messed up parents, seem to be much less likely to get into trouble. Lead is some evil crap and makes Meth look like harmless candy in its longterm effects on people. Why I stated 'gasoline' was the lead was being burned and dispersed into the air hence being breathed by little kids (from especially the late 1950's till ca. 1985 when leaded fuel use really started dropping off) whose brains were still developing.
 
Old 06-26-2008, 09:06 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,638,049 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
To macmeal, amc760 and the one:

There may be hope yet for many of the above screwed up kids:

#1: the birthrate seems to decline after a generation here in the USA
#2: despite the 'attitude' that many lower class people have against education; typically, the children born or at least raised in the USA (legal and illegal) are usually literate compared to their parents hence the former have a leg up.
#3: this may be off the wall but; more and more researchers are tumbling to the fact that since lead has been banned in gasoline here in the USA for quite a few years now------the kids growing up today------even those with flagrantly messed up parents, seem to be much less likely to get into trouble. Lead is some evil crap and makes Meth look like harmless candy in its longterm effects on people. Why I stated 'gasoline' was the lead was being burned and dispersed into the air hence being breathed by little kids (from especially the late 1950's till ca. 1985 when leaded fuel use really started dropping off) whose brains were still developing.
Good points..yes, I've heard of the 'lead factor' used in these studies. 'Off the wall'? I don't know.

While your points are encouraging, and yes, a lowering birth rate has ALWAYS gone hande-in-hand with a rise in income (unless you're Mormon), it still leaves cause for concern....because on top of all the other changes we've gone through, there's ALSO the pretty significant change in 'attitude' that's come about in the past few decades, from "It's up to the rough, tough, diverse group of immigrants to CONFORM to America, and to change their lifestyles, in order to accomodate to American culture"......to the 'conventional wisdom' of today, which says, "It's up to AMERICA, and its people, to make allowances in THEIR culture, so that THEY will be able to adjust THEIR lifestyles, in order to conform to, and to accomodate, the various cultures of the 'rough, tough, diverse' immigrants.....whatever those cultures may be"......

BOTH of these "mindsets" emphasize "conforming" and "accomodating"....but they are two VERY different ways of 'seeing things'.....and I fear that this 'new way' of seeing things may go a long way in 'neutralizing' the gains you spoke of.

Hope I'm wrong....
 
Old 10-01-2008, 11:05 PM
 
4 posts, read 5,302 times
Reputation: 10
Thumbs down Interesting reply to peoples comments ..

You people are SO color blind it's unbelievable!!!!
 
Old 10-01-2008, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,685,038 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by jajajuarez View Post
You people are SO color blind it's unbelievable!!!!
Speaking for myself: I am extremely prejudiced; yes..........against illegal immigrants-------------no matter their race/ethnicity!

That includes Irish, Polish as well as Hispanics, etc.
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