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Old 06-25-2008, 11:00 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,651,346 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
However, while all those against illegal immigration arent necessarily racist or anti-hispanic, all of those who are racist and anti-hispanic ARE against illegal immigration.

.
This point gets VERY tiresome, but it's an old favorite. "All of those who are racist and anti-Hispanic ARE against illegal immigration?" OK, your point has been made. No doubt these racists are ALSO against sex with farm animals, drinking kerosene, and human sacrifice. These racists are probably in FAVOR of a few things, as well...like clean drinking water, good gas mileage, and driving on the right.

SO WHAT ? Who CARES what the 'screwballs' think? I don't agree with illegal immigration, nor does my wife...and these racists would probably take a VERY dim view of us, as we would of them...but so what? If a racist tells you that "2 and 2 are four", he's correct about that. Are you suggesting that "2 + 2= 4" is a racist concept, because it's what racists usually believe?

Adolf Hitler apparently had a passion for gardening. So do I. That doesn't make me a Nazi.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:08 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,010,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm all for putting aside race in discussing immigration. But exactly which "cultural traits" should be discussed? Hopefully you aren't referring to the importance, or unimportance, of laws and how a culture views them? THat's pretty 'scary', I must admit. Should a "violent" culture, for example, be held to a looser standard of obeying American law, than a "less violent" culture? Also, do you see a distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration?...and exactly how does "culture" figure into the difference between the two (assuming of course that there IS a difference). Is illegal immigration ever "OK", as long as the person has cultural values that "tell him" it's OK?

Given that there are arguably 30 or 40 major "cultures" around the world, and hundreds of variations of them, exactly what is the US Government's responsibility in seeking to accomodate each culture? Do some have preference over others? Does the US get to make a 'pitch' for ITS culture to be factored into all these 'policies and stuff'? (assuming that the US HAS a culture at all)...

Fair questions, I believe. Anybody have any answers..or any thoughts on this?
We should be worrying more about the effects (assuming there are any) on the economy, health care, jobs, etc.
Not on how many people are speaking Spanish, or if the kids have a propensity to join gangs, or if they are more inclined to do crime than other humans, or if they like to keep chickens in their yards, or if they listen to music loudly, or if they are an "unpleasant presence" as Fastfilm would say.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,651,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
We should be worrying more about the effects (assuming there are any) on the economy, health care, jobs, etc.
Not on how many people are speaking Spanish, or if the kids have a propensity to join gangs, or if they are more inclined to do crime than other humans, or if they like to keep chickens in their yards, or if they listen to music loudly, or if they are an "unpleasant presence" as Fastfilm would say.
Nothing wrong with an immigrant speaking Spanish...hopefully they'll pick up English once they settle in. "Chickens in the yard"? A local problem..I had them myself for many years.

But "a propensity to join gangs"? or if they're "more inclined to do crime than others"? Sorry, but I'd have to say that's VERY important. I'd say that's a BIG consideration in who we WANT, and who we DON'T, and I'm surprised you'd disagree. Who cares if we benefit from cheap labor, if the benefits are canceled out by a crime wave?

If you have information on who has a "propensity for crime", you should share it. I believe our official government policy is that "NO one has such a propensity". But it IS important, because crime is a tragedy, and we would be well advised not to bring in any more than we already have. Isn't it bad enough NOW?
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:40 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 6,010,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Nothing wrong with an immigrant speaking Spanish...hopefully they'll pick up English once they settle in. "Chickens in the yard"? A local problem..I had them myself for many years.

But "a propensity to join gangs"? or if they're "more inclined to do crime than others"? Sorry, but I'd have to say that's VERY important. I'd say that's a BIG consideration in who we WANT, and who we DON'T, and I'm surprised you'd disagree. Who cares if we benefit from cheap labor, if the benefits are canceled out by a crime wave?

If you have information on who has a "propensity for crime", you should share it. I believe our official government policy is that "NO one has such a propensity". But it IS important, because crime is a tragedy, and we would be well advised not to bring in any more than we already have. Isn't it bad enough NOW?

I don't think illegal immigrants are more inclined to do violent crime than anyone else.

I think a lot of the crime that is being attributed to illegal immigrants is mostly gang related, and that is a problem we need to deal with here.

I'm saying people need to get rid of that image of these pillaging, raping, and killing invaders before immigration can seriously be discussed.
Because when people have too much fear, its not long before things start to get really ugly.

Most of us so-called "pro illegals" are not pro illegal at all. We dont endorse illegal immigration.
But we(people like me at least) are very turned off by a lot of these generalizations, stereotypes, and just things being said.

You yourself said you have know a lot of illegal immigrants. And Im sure you didn't see them as "aliens" or "invaders" or "the menace".
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,181,575 times
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Personally, I've met dozens of illegal immigrants through my work in the commercial construction field. I've found the majority of them to be quite pleasant, on a personal level. I've had conversations with many of them, stilted though they may be, and have found their stories quite touching.

That STILL doesn't excuse their illegal presence here, and when I've confronted them about it, they've replied that until 'La Policia' DO SOMETHING about it, they'll remain here for what they can get, REGARDLESS of the ill effects felt by the American worker they're illegally competing against.

And believe me when I tell you, they KNOW what they're doing to the wage markets...
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:38 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,973,998 times
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So, we have to take race out of the discussion? How can we, when 80% of the illegals come from SOB? It's pretty hard to take that out - we're generally talking about South Americans who are breaking our laws. That's because they're next door!

What difference does it make to admit they're mostly Mexicans? It's a fact. It doesn't have anything to do with "racism" - it's just the truth.

What - are we supposed to talk about the few illegal Irish coming here to Boston compared to the MILLIONS of illegal Mexicans? The southern border is where we have to start, because that is the worst problem we have regarding illegals.

If THAT was cleared up, we'd be in good shape in dealing with other illegals.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,715,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
So, we have to take race out of the discussion? How can we, when 80% of the illegals come from SOB? It's pretty hard to take that out - we're generally talking about South Americans who are breaking our laws. That's because they're next door!

What difference does it make to admit they're mostly Mexicans? It's a fact. It doesn't have anything to do with "racism" - it's just the truth.

What - are we supposed to talk about the few illegal Irish coming here to Boston compared to the MILLIONS of illegal Mexicans? The southern border is where we have to start, because that is the worst problem we have regarding illegals.

If THAT was cleared up, we'd be in good shape in dealing with other illegals.
Are there any illegal Irish left in the USA? Today's Ireland is quite affluent------on par with here. Heck; prosperity is one big factor in causing the IRA to basically call it quits. It is tough to find 'angry young men' to recruit when they can make $$$ doing legit work
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,857,919 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
Personally, I've met dozens of illegal immigrants through my work in the commercial construction field. I've found the majority of them to be quite pleasant, on a personal level. I've had conversations with many of them, stilted though they may be, and have found their stories quite touching.

That STILL doesn't excuse their illegal presence here, and when I've confronted them about it, they've replied that until 'La Policia' DO SOMETHING about it, they'll remain here for what they can get, REGARDLESS of the ill effects felt by the American worker they're illegally competing against.

And believe me when I tell you, they KNOW what they're doing to the wage markets...
Sure they know; but they could care less. As long as "they" are benefiting from being here, it doesn't matter if their presence adversely affects legal citizens. As long as “they” can send money home, so what if legal citizens can’t save any money, or can barely make ends meet. As long as “their” kids are getting an education, who cares if the standard of education falters for legal children? Yet, we are the uncharitable “bad” guys.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:21 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,973,998 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Are there any illegal Irish left in the USA? Today's Ireland is quite affluent------on par with here. Heck; prosperity is one big factor in causing the IRA to basically call it quits. It is tough to find 'angry young men' to recruit when they can make $$$ doing legit work
Supposedly, there are 25,000 illegal Irish in Boston. And, wouldn't you know it, but the city is helping them get free services?

Things are the same everywhere.
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:41 PM
 
3,859 posts, read 9,195,422 times
Reputation: 2728
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Are there any illegal Irish left in the USA? Today's Ireland is quite affluent------on par with here. Heck; prosperity is one big factor in causing the IRA to basically call it quits. It is tough to find 'angry young men' to recruit when they can make $$$ doing legit work
NYC has a decent sized Irish illegal alien population.
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