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Old 06-26-2008, 10:31 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Nope....that's just a BIT of an exaggeration. It's more like "join us, or quit acting surprised when you're regarded with mistrust by 'us' ". You can't have it both ways. The choice is yours to make.
Azbear has frequently brought up the chances of legal Mexican-Americans getting caught up in the violence directed at illegals "on accident".

People should take notes on history. Americans need to treat everyone with dignity and respect, "or else".
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Azbear has frequently brought up the chances of legal Mexican-Americans getting caught up in the violence directed at illegals "on accident".

People should take notes on history. Americans need to treat everyone with dignity and respect, "or else".
Respect is a two way street.

Entering the USA illegally and demanding the rights of a green car holder let alone a citizen is a flagrant lack of respect towards us.

Suffice to say: the sooner the borders (at least our southern one) are closed/locked and employer sanctions laws, etc. are passed------that will probably defuse the situation that may arise of innocents being hassled.
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:23 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,200 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
When basing a message on the 'research' performed by the Southern Poverty Law Center it's a good idea to wear your asbestos underwear. Morris Dees and his money-grubbing minions have been exposed over and over again as the largest huckstering firm in the nation.

Google 'The Church of Morris Dees' for the story...
Why, yes, I did said Google search. Did you go past the first page? As retrieved on 26 June, 2008, links to the actual article (from Harper's) are for subscribers only. Did you, GuyPinestra, read the original article (i.e. are you a Harper's subscriber)?

When I clicked on the #1 URL (from above retrieval date) at The Church of Morris Dees - November, 2000 - Harper's Magazine, from something called "American Patrol" (not a likely objective resource) I can trace the "Original URL" to http://www.texasls.org/articles/reading_room/church_of_morris_dees.htm (broken link), which is a "The file your looking for could not be found." at the Texas League of the South. Whether the Texas League of the South is any sort of, y'know, neo-confederate or racist website is certainly up to anyone that wants to check their website. That is, anyone can Google the League of the South and make up his or her own mind about the LOS viewpoint. He or she might pay particular attention to the FAQ's if she or he cares to look into the LOS viewpoint, as you suggest.

I wholeheartedly agree with GuyPinestra. You should Google "The Church of Morris Dees". You should look into those providing information (like Harper's, American Patrol or the LOS).

What's with the nsm88 site on page 1 of that Google search, GuyPinestra? Did you want to make a moral comparison between the SPLC and their critics at the NSM site you recommended?
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Old 06-27-2008, 02:30 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,200 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This video is the latest pro-illegal propaganda issued by La Raza. They are determined to link illegal alien opponents with racist hate groups. Notice the word “illegal” is never mentioned.

Video:We Can Stop The Hate | Behind The Veil: America’s Anti-Immigration Network (http://www.wecanstopthehate.org./videos/behind_the_veil_americas_anti_immigration_network - broken link)



National Council of La Raza: NEW VIDEO SHOWS LINK BETWEEN ANTI-IMMIGRANT GROUPS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS (http://www.nclr.org/content/news/detail/52538/ - broken link)
So what? You might want to check whether FAIR, CIS (Krikorian's latest is titled The New Case Against Immigration, Both Legal and Illegal), the Social Contract Press, and NumbersUSA are anti-immigrant. They are, so it's no wonder that "the word 'illegal' is never mentioned" by Beirich.

Those of you that embrace aliens that enter the U.S. legally are, apparently, not the subject of critiques such as this. Why do you feel the need to respond? Is it just that you don't recognize the stated agenda of these organizations? That you refuse to?
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Old 06-27-2008, 02:37 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,200 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Where did you see that? Unless I missed it, a distinction is NOT made between legal and illegal immigration.

The fact that most racists are likely to also be anti-Mexican, or anti-Black, or anti-Hispanic, is a given. That’s generally the mindset of a racist. However, it is disingenuous for La Raza, et al. to imply that anti-“illegals” are by definition, racists. That’s a deceptive ad hominem tactic.
Hold up. If a distinction isn't being made (as you say) between aliens (legal/illegal) how is NCLR, et al. implying anything about "anti-'illegals'". Are they making that distinction or not, Benicar?
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Old 06-27-2008, 02:57 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolem View Post
Absolutely! Every last illegal-regardless of country of origin, race, whatever needs a one way ticket HOME.
Sudanese illegals must be returned to Darfur? Yes/No.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:57 AM
 
77 posts, read 101,200 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
... The two groups [racists/anti-Hispanics and those against illegal immigration] have the same goal, even its for different reasons. Its inevitable they will cross paths somehow, even accidentally.

And I agree with that quote you linked to.
He admits illegal immigration is a problem, and he's saying he is against the demonization of the immigrants themselves and wants to seperate ethnicity and race from the issue.
I was having some trouble figuring this out. "He" is apparently Janet Murguia, president of NCLR. Murguia (not a "he") wasn't talking about hate directed at illegal aliens. Murguia never mentioned illegal aliens, but was speaking (as did Tanton and Bierich) of aliens.

As long as it's easy to associate any unlawful act (e.g. Entry Without Inspection) with any race or ethnicity (and it's very easy for some--citing an 80% figure, for example), separating ethnicity and race from the immigration issue ain't gonna happen. How about you try not to muddle the issues?

Most aliens in the U.S. are from Mexico. Most illegal aliens in the U.S. are from Mexico. Now watch me **not** get slammed as a racist, as no one has ever actually been called a racist for saying that alone, despite how many people think they have. (I suspect that--just maybe--they said some other things as well.)

And if you think white supremacists rubbing elbows with people opposed to what is, in fact, "non-white" immigration to "white"-majority countries is accidental or coincidental, there's not much I can do for you. I suspect you couldn't spare the eight minutes to watch the video or Google "John Tanton". Sad.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:55 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
Azbear has frequently brought up the chances of legal Mexican-Americans getting caught up in the violence directed at illegals "on accident".

People should take notes on history. Americans need to treat everyone with dignity and respect, "or else".
BAD choice of terms....sounds like "gang" talk to me. "Dignity", in the real world, is the product of one's being 'worthy, honored, and esteemed'.....there are certain conditions to a person's being treated with dignity...one of them being that he must act in a dignified manner himself.

Respect? Sorry, but in the 'real world', respect is VERY MUCH something that must be earned. You can intimidate me and force me to FEAR you, but you can't force my respect....and you won't get it, unless you are respectable.

I know that gang-bangers frequently mention 'dignity and respect'...but they're also frequently mistaken. Dignity and respect are 'conditional' concepts. They must be earned, and they can be lost. That's the rationale behind the expression "with all due respect"... We extend respect to those to whom it's "due".....but when it's "undue", we don't.

Last edited by macmeal; 06-27-2008 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by NibblingNed View Post
So what? You might want to check whether FAIR, CIS (Krikorian's latest is titled The New Case Against Immigration, Both Legal and Illegal), the Social Contract Press, and NumbersUSA are anti-immigrant. They are, so it's no wonder that "the word 'illegal' is never mentioned" by Beirich.

Those of you that embrace aliens that enter the U.S. legally are, apparently, not the subject of critiques such as this. Why do you feel the need to respond? Is it just that you don't recognize the stated agenda of these organizations? That you refuse to?
Quote:
Hold up. If a distinction isn't being made (as you say) between aliens (legal/illegal) how is NCLR, et al. implying anything about "anti-'illegals'". Are they making that distinction or not, Benicar?
Ned, c’mon let’s not play games. If you are as well-versed on the immigration debate as you would have us believe…….surely you know illegal alien apologists make a concerted effort to omit the term “illegal” from their “immigration” discourse. They do this in an attempt to justify and obfuscate their “true” agenda…….which is to ensure a steady influx of “cheap” labor for the corporate elite profiteers from whom they receive their multi-million dollar funding.

Illegal immigration, under the guise of “civil rights,” has become a lucrative enterprise for La Raza, et al., and they demonize ALL opposition as being racists, xenophobes, nativists, etc. -- and intentionally make no distinction between white supremacist individuals or organizations, and non-racist concerned U.S. citizens. Their objective is to successfully convince the masses that anti-illegal = anti-immigrant = racist; cognizant of the fact that few would choose to be considered the latter.

Whether the “agenda” of organizations are “stated” or “implicit” is of little concern to me personally; given the fact that I have not formulated my stance on illegal immigration on the tenets of these groups.

Perhaps you consider “legal” and “illegal” to be synonymous; thereby, “immigrant” would in fact suffice as being appropriate terminology for those circumventing our laws. I happen to differentiate between the two.

Last edited by Benicar; 06-27-2008 at 09:55 AM.. Reason: correction
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:38 PM
 
Location: California
3,172 posts, read 5,995,777 times
Reputation: 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
BAD choice of terms....sounds like "gang" talk to me. "Dignity", in the real world, is the product of one's being 'worthy, honored, and esteemed'.....there are certain conditions to a person's being treated with dignity...one of them being that he must act in a dignified manner himself.

Respect? Sorry, but in the 'real world', respect is VERY MUCH something that must be earned. You can intimidate me and force me to FEAR you, but you can't force my respect....and you won't get it, unless you are respectable.

I know that gang-bangers frequently mention 'dignity and respect'...but they're also frequently mistaken. Dignity and respect are 'conditional' concepts. They must be earned, and they can be lost. That's the rationale behind the expression "with all due respect"... We extend respect to those to whom it's "due".....but when it's "undue", we don't.
Everyone deserves respect and dignity, Macmeal. Thats not "gang talk".
Its too bad thats what you associate those words with.
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