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Old 07-02-2008, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amc760 View Post
And for your analogy, I think its more like those in the Master's program at the nice university are grumbling about a bunch of people crashing classes at the local community college to get an Associates.
It doesn't really affect the former's education, but to them it's just plain wrong.
Though I liked macmeal's post, I think that your modification of his analogy is more fitting. Most people who are upset about this are NOT in a position to have their job taken away from a guy who doesn't speak English and has, on average, a 10th grade education. However, when illegal immigrants move to an economically depressed area that has a high proportion of Americans without a lot of education filling the existing jobs, there will be trouble. However, since this is largely NOT the case in this country, I continue to think that the current rate of immigration (including the illegal immigration - although I agree that it's "wrong") is being well-absorbed by the economy and that few people are actually losing their jobs over it. Massive illegal immigration to Appalachia = trouble, while massive illegal immigration to California largely has NOT led economic tumult.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:02 AM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Though I liked macmeal's post, I think that your modification of his analogy is more fitting. Most people who are upset about this are NOT in a position to have their job taken away from a guy who doesn't speak English and has, on average, a 10th grade education. However, when illegal immigrants move to an economically depressed area that has a high proportion of Americans without a lot of education filling the existing jobs, there will be trouble. However, since this is largely NOT the case in this country, I continue to think that the current rate of immigration (including the illegal immigration - although I agree that it's "wrong") is being well-absorbed by the economy and that few people are actually losing their jobs over it. Massive illegal immigration to Appalachia = trouble, while massive illegal immigration to California largely has NOT led economic tumult.
This is the case between the Latino and Black communities for the most part.
Instead of being at each other's throats over it, they need to put heat to the employers who are practicing discrimination against low skilled Blacks and Mexican-Americans in favor of more docile and hardworking illegals.

But as you said, the loudest voices griping are the people who are least affected by illegal immigration, at least economically speaking.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Though I liked macmeal's post, I think that your modification of his analogy is more fitting. Most people who are upset about this are NOT in a position to have their job taken away from a guy who doesn't speak English and has, on average, a 10th grade education. However, when illegal immigrants move to an economically depressed area that has a high proportion of Americans without a lot of education filling the existing jobs, there will be trouble. However, since this is largely NOT the case in this country, I continue to think that the current rate of immigration (including the illegal immigration - although I agree that it's "wrong") is being well-absorbed by the economy and that few people are actually losing their jobs over it. Massive illegal immigration to Appalachia = trouble, while massive illegal immigration to California largely has NOT led economic tumult.
My main gripe has NEVER been with illegals coming in and 'taking jobs away'...that's merely a perpiheral issue. My MAIN gripe has always been in the fact that concern over millions of illegals coming here, living in 'legal limbo' and forming an angry sub-group in society, is now coming to be accepted as 'par for the course'...and anyone who expresses doubts (such as I am doing here) invites being labeled as a 'racist'. An 'attack on an illegal' is 'an attack on the Hispanic people'...wherever they may be.

This is the 'down-side' of twisted, exaggerated ethnic solidarity, and it is totally incompatible with living in a free, modern, and mutiracial society. THAT is what concerns me...that, and the fact that so many people completely miss this point. America is a rather 'fragile' concept, and 'getting along' together isn't a natural human trait. It must be learned. It takes discipline, and it takes determination. That's called 'assimilation'.

Are you familiar with the Kurds? An ancient and proud group..they feel like a 'nation'. Today, most are legally citizens of Turkey or Iraq. But they don't "feel" Turkish, nor do they "feel" Iraqi..they "feel" Kurdish. They resent living 'under' the Turkish or Iraqi governments (though legally they are 'part; of these places). THey don't 'like' Turks, or Arabic Iraqis..they 'like' other Kurds. They have their own language. They RESENT having to cross a border between countries to visit their 'cousins' on the other side. They see themselves as one united group..KURDS. Kurds in Turkey help Iraqi Kurds to 'rebel' against Iraq. And Kurds in Iraq aid Turkish Kurds who conspire against the Turkish government. "Kurdish ethnicity" is far stronger and more compelling than some silly concept of 'citizenship'. Do you see any parallels here in the US?

Armenians are in somewhat the same situation..they don't "feel" like Turks or Syrians (that's just their citizenship). THey feel like Armenians. Ask most any Armenian person in California about how they "feel" toward Turkey..where MOST of their ancestors came from. Not a 'nice' picture. Probably somewhat the way that illegals "feel" about the US....or would, if 'push ever came to shove'.

When American citizenship ceases to have any meaning beyond just a 'meal ticket'...or a 'jackpot', or 'hitting the lottery'....when being an American means anything you WANT it to mean, and requires NO input, NO loyalty, and NO obligation from anyone, but is only a set of entitlements.....and when all one has to do is loudly and publically break the law long enough, that America finally just 'caves in' and legalizes you (and thus shows that 'crime DOES pay', and that 'nice guys finish LAST')....then we are on our way to becoming like a third-world nation. That's why they're third-world nations...STRONG on ethnic loyalties, very WEAK on concepts of citizenship.

Illegal immigrants are in much the same position HERE, as the Kurds are in Asia Minor...a resentful group of 'outsiders', who feel no emotional loyalty to the US, with the American population 'standing in the way of their progress', who see themselves as part of a proud ethnic group, and NOT as loyal citizens of EITHER nation..who see no moral imperative to obey laws, because those laws weren't written by THEM....and who loudly DEMAND the support of Hispanic Americans, because that's their 'ethnic duty"... (believe ME, I've heard this one close-up)..And when THIS happens (and it's happening NOW), then that is coming ever more close to the definition of 'balkanization".

Amc doesn't 'see' this, and I doubt that he ever will. But you yourself, Crisp, admit that illegal immigration is 'wrong'. The question is, HOW wrong? When a 'gripe' against illegals becomes an 'attack on all Hispanics" then all reasonable discourse is of no use. THat's ethnic politics. And it may work, for a time, when things are good, and the economy is robust, and gas is affordable. But when times get tough, when things start to 'happen', then ethnic politics is a certain recipe for disaster. You just can't have it both ways. We're either a united society under a common law which applies to all, or we're a collection of tribes.

When the Mayor of a large American city claims that "WE Clean Your Toilets", that's ethnic politics. Not quite the Third World, yet. But give us time. The Third World has plenty of room.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
My main gripe has NEVER been with illegals coming in and 'taking jobs away'...that's merely a perpiheral issue. My MAIN gripe has always been in the fact that concern over millions of illegals coming here, living in 'legal limbo' and forming an angry sub-group in society, is now coming to be accepted as 'par for the course'...and anyone who expresses doubts (such as I am doing here) invites being labeled as a 'racist'. An 'attack on an illegal' is 'an attack on the Hispanic people'...wherever they may be.

This is the 'down-side' of twisted, exaggerated ethnic solidarity, and it is totally incompatible with living in a free, modern, and mutiracial society. THAT is what concerns me...that, and the fact that so many people completely miss this point. America is a rather 'fragile' concept, and 'getting along' together isn't a natural human trait. It must be learned. It takes discipline, and it takes determination. That's called 'assimilation'.

Are you familiar with the Kurds? An ancient and proud group..they feel like a 'nation'. Today, most are legally citizens of Turkey or Iraq. But they don't "feel" Turkish, nor do they "feel" Iraqi..they "feel" Kurdish. They resent living 'under' the Turkish or Iraqi governments (though legally they are 'part; of these places). THey don't 'like' Turks, or Arabic Iraqis..they 'like' other Kurds. They have their own language. They RESENT having to cross a border between countries to visit their 'cousins' on the other side. They see themselves as one united group..KURDS. Kurds in Turkey help Iraqi Kurds to 'rebel' against Iraq. And Kurds in Iraq aid Turkish Kurds who conspire against the Turkish government. "Kurdish ethnicity" is far stronger and more compelling than some silly concept of 'citizenship'. Do you see any parallels here in the US?

Armenians are in somewhat the same situation..they don't "feel" like Turks or Syrians (that's just their citizenship). THey feel like Armenians. Ask most any Armenian person in California about how they "feel" toward Turkey..where MOST of their ancestors came from. Not a 'nice' picture. Probably somewhat the way that illegals "feel" about the US....or would, if 'push ever came to shove'.

When American citizenship ceases to have any meaning beyond just a 'meal ticket'...or a 'jackpot', or 'hitting the lottery'....when being an American means anything you WANT it to mean, and requires NO input, NO loyalty, and NO obligation from anyone, but is only a set of entitlements.....and when all one has to do is loudly and publically break the law long enough, that America finally just 'caves in' and legalizes you (and thus shows that 'crime DOES pay', and that 'nice guys finish LAST')....then we are on our way to becoming like a third-world nation. That's why they're third-world nations...STRONG on ethnic loyalties, very WEAK on concepts of citizenship.

Illegal immigrants are in much the same position HERE, as the Kurds are in Asia Minor...a resentful group of 'outsiders', who feel no emotional loyalty to the US, with the American population 'standing in the way of their progress', who see themselves as part of a proud ethnic group, and NOT as loyal citizens of EITHER nation..who see no moral imperative to obey laws, because those laws weren't written by THEM....and who loudly DEMAND the support of Hispanic Americans, because that's their 'ethnic duty"... (believe ME, I've heard this one close-up)..And when THIS happens (and it's happening NOW), then that is coming ever more close to the definition of 'balkanization".


Amc doesn't 'see' this, and I doubt that he ever will. But you yourself, Crisp, admit that illegal immigration is 'wrong'. The question is, HOW wrong? When a 'gripe' against illegals becomes an 'attack on all Hispanics" then all reasonable discourse is of no use. THat's ethnic politics. And it may work, for a time, when things are good, and the economy is robust, and gas is affordable. But when times get tough, when things start to 'happen', then ethnic politics is a certain recipe for disaster. You just can't have it both ways. We're either a united society under a common law which applies to all, or we're a collection of tribes.

When the Mayor of a large American city claims that "WE Clean Your Toilets", that's ethnic politics. Not quite the Third World, yet. But give us time. The Third World has plenty of room.
Excellent post! Particularly the bolded sections. Sorry I can't rep you.

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Old 07-03-2008, 02:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Amc doesn't 'see' this, and I doubt that he ever will. But you yourself, Crisp, admit that illegal immigration is 'wrong'. The question is, HOW wrong? When a 'gripe' against illegals becomes an 'attack on all Hispanics" then all reasonable discourse is of no use. THat's ethnic politics. And it may work, for a time, when things are good, and the economy is robust, and gas is affordable. But when times get tough, when things start to 'happen', then ethnic politics is a certain recipe for disaster. You just can't have it both ways. We're either a united society under a common law which applies to all, or we're a collection of tribes.

When the Mayor of a large American city claims that "WE Clean Your Toilets", that's ethnic politics. Not quite the Third World, yet. But give us time. The Third World has plenty of room.
I'd like to start by saying that I don't get all "riled up" over symbolism like most people do. For example, the whole "fence" situation - I really don't care about it AT ALL. People on both sides of the debate are shocked to hear that as someone who has a lot to say about the current state of immigration to this country, I really don't care about fences and cleaning toilets and signs that say "This is America; we ONLY accept orders in English" or anything else along those lines. I prefer not to get lost in the little stuff where other people get pissed off and distracted from the real issues.

People who say that anti-illegal immigration = racism are just wrong in my mind. I don't believe this at all and I hope that no one on this forum believes that I feel this way. Benicar says quite often that the great majority of illegal immigrants are Latin American. She is right. However, there are plenty of Hispanics of all races who legally live in this country who feel no obligation to Latin American illegal aliens just because they are "Hispanic." I really don't see this "ethnic solidarity" that you fear. There is so much national pride (for one's country rather than for another Hispanic country), racism, and classism in the Hispanic community that solidarity on any one issue - let ALONE illegal immigration - is nearly impossible. I hear wildly varying comments on this issue from Hispanic people and really don't see a clear stance at all.

I don't think it's fair to say that illegal immigrants are an angry group which demands the support of Hispanic-Americans. A small group of Mexican-AMERICANS seems to be that angry group who demands support for MEXICAN illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrants tend to have positive attitudes towards almost all aspects of American life, including a positive attitude towards living and interacting with the American people. A small (but vocal) minority of Mexican-AMERICANS seem to be the ones who are all pissed off. Mexicans planting palm trees and making corn tortillas for 12 hours per day in Orange County, California aren't the ones who are pushing this Mecha and reconquista garbage... do I need to repeat for the 50th time which group seems to be doing this isntead...? I don't see a balkanization going on because this group of bad apples constitutes a minority of Mexican-Americans, LET ALONE a majority of illegal (Mexican) immigrants or majority of Hispanics in this country. You give an interesting analogy but I don't think it works. However, if that small minority of bad apple Mexican-Americans ever convinced a good part of the illegal Mexican immigrants to feel the same way as they do, then I too would be scared. I'm glad that this just doesn't seem to be the case to me.

Illegal immigration is wrong people it is against the law and unfair to people who chose to come here legally. However, does this mean that we should deport people who disregarded our laws to come here for a better life? In my opinion, no - because I believe that these people contribute more (and cost less) than it would cost to deport them. The reason I am not terribly against illegal immigration (although I admit that it's "wrong") is because the rate of immigration (including the rate of illegal immigration) seems to be well-absorbed by the economy. Like I've stated before, this could change, and so could my feelings on how we should deal with illegal immigrants. My position has NOTHING to do with historical BS that Native Americans (including Mexicans of partial indigenous descent) have a claim to US territory and it has little to do with compassion. I'm not naive enough to just let anyone come who wants to live here. However, when we have large (but not excessive) group of people coming who are largely LIKE US (Christian westerners), GLAD TO BE HERE, and the economy can handle it, I really don't see too much of a problem beyond the fact (well, my opinion) that LEGAL immigration is too time consuming, difficult, and costly. Sometimes I have to overlook what's "wrong" if the aggregate of its consequences tilts to positive. Eventually society will redefine "wrong," I guess.
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:58 PM
 
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Illegal immigration is wrong people it is against the law and unfair to people who chose to come here legally. However, does this mean that we should deport people who disregarded our laws to come here for a better life? In my opinion, no - because I believe that these people contribute more (and cost less) than it would cost to deport them. The reason I am not terribly against illegal immigration (although I admit that it's "wrong") is because the rate of immigration (including the rate of illegal immigration) seems to be well-absorbed by the economy. Like I've stated before, this could change, and so could my feelings on how we should deal with illegal immigrants. My position has NOTHING to do with historical BS that Native Americans (including Mexicans of partial indigenous descent) have a claim to US territory and it has little to do with compassion. I'm not naive enough to just let anyone come who wants to live here. However, when we have large (but not excessive) group of people coming who are largely LIKE US (Christian westerners), GLAD TO BE HERE, and the economy can handle it, I really don't see too much of a problem beyond the fact (well, my opinion) that LEGAL immigration is too time consuming, difficult, and costly. Sometimes I have to overlook what's "wrong" if the aggregate of its consequences tilts to positive. Eventually society will redefine "wrong," I guess.
Thanks for your response...I respect your opinion. I must admit, that of the many many illegals I've known personally over the years, I've never met an 'activist' type. The people I've known have been hard-working, cheerful, and upbeat, I will admit. "Activist" types, do exist, and they DO make a lot of noise, and they HAVE won over a considerable number of the American population to their 'corner', which is in itself a little alarming. My explanation has always been, "the illegals today simply don't ACT like the illegals did in former years". And I do believe there's much truth in this statement. Perhaps I'm a little pessimistic...but only a LITTLE. Much of my pessimism is well-founded, I believe.

I guess what alarms me is this notion that the US is somehow 'invulnerable', that its people are 'cool' with everything, and that it will go on forever, no matter how it's abused or misused. This I refuse to believe. I've been to MANY countries, and I know that what we have here isn't 'normal'...it didn't just 'happen'....and it takes a certain amount of 'maintenance' to keep it going. I ALSO know it could be lost.

The US WILL always be here...of that there's little doubt. But will it keep its wonderful sense of freedom, of personal independence, and personal accountability? Frankly, I don't know. Maybe not. I've SEEN "how the other half lives", and I don't want to live that way. Many of THEM don't either..which is why they leave THERE, and come HERE. And the only difference between "here" and "there" is the 'system'.....and that's what I'm concerned about. Lose the 'system', and America becomes just another spot on the map....

Guess I hate to think we might someday 'lose it', without even realizing what "it" is....My gut instinct tells me that few people who've ever lived through the 'collapse' of a society actually feel that it happened "one Tuesday morning".....nothing that distinct. I believe that when a society deteriorates, it's simply the case that things get progressively crappier, harsher, tougher, and meaner, until one day people simply realize that what they once took for granted, no longer exists..and by then, obviously, it's too late to do anything about it. But then again, no one REALLY knows, do they? Because no one's ever designed a society before whose stated purpose is "self-rule", by ALL of its citizens. Maybe there's a limit to that type of society, beyond which a diverse group of people just CAN'T rule themselves, because there's no agreement among them on most things, and a more authoritarian system must be called in to play. I sure HOPE not....but who really knows? After all, we've "never done this before".

PS Just a little gratitude would go a long way, too, on the part of illegals.....and maybe a BIT fewer angry demands. THat usually works well, even with 'clueless' gringos.....EVERYONE is a sucker for appreciation...

Last edited by macmeal; 07-03-2008 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 07-03-2008, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Another excellent post, macmeal!

For the record, I do not think ALL Hispanics support illegal immigration. I have many Hispanic relatives (former in-laws) and friends who vehemently oppose everything illegal aliens represent. Some are more passionate than I have ever been. They endured years of modifying status, mounds of paperwork, and waiting their “turn” through the proper channels to obtain their citizenship. They value being an American, and love this country.

Groups such as La Raza, with the help of the traitorous ACLU, with their open borders, pro-illegal agendas have inflamed many citizens of this country, and have given the impression that they are representative of the vast majority of Hispanics. In addition, the threats from the “Hispanic community” that they will not vote for a presidential candidate who will not promise amnesty, certainly gives one the impression that they are unified in their support of illegal aliens. Unfortunately, pro-illegal Hispanics receive the lion’s share of the press.

I waited several years to “legally” be with the man I loved; so I know firsthand the trials and tribulations legal immigrants must endure to become a U.S. citizen. This is one reason illegal immigration is such a thorn in my side…..it’s an affront; in addition to the myriad adversities this invasion has brought to our country. Why should an interloper be invited to dine at my table, and served a meal prior to my invited guest?

If I gave anyone the impression that I am anti-Hispanic, anti-legal immigrant, or that I consider the majority of Hispanics in this country to be illegal; it certainly is not my belief, and it was not my intention.
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If I gave anyone the impression that I am anti-Hispanic, anti-legal immigrant, or that I consider the majority of Hispanics in this country to be illegal; it certainly is not my belief, and it was not my intention.
I think you've been quite clear that you have no problem with Hispanics or immigrants; you have a problem with people "skipping the line" in order to get here while other people pay their dues (in patience, money, time, etc) and in turn get to enter legally a lot LATER than the people who did it the wrong way. If anyone has called you racist or anti-Hispanic I am sorry because I have read your posts and you don't come across that way at all. People on both sides of the debate get caught up in the symbolism and often don't realize that most people who are against illegal immigration probably don't have anything against Hispanics.
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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I think you've been quite clear that you have no problem with Hispanics or immigrants; you have a problem with people "skipping the line" in order to get here while other people pay their dues (in patience, money, time, etc) and in turn get to enter legally a lot LATER than the people who did it the wrong way. If anyone has called you racist or anti-Hispanic I am sorry because I have read your posts and you don't come across that way at all. People on both sides of the debate get caught up in the symbolism and often don't realize that most people who are against illegal immigration probably don't have anything against Hispanics.
Thanks!
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Though I liked macmeal's post, I think that your modification of his analogy is more fitting. Most people who are upset about this are NOT in a position to have their job taken away from a guy who doesn't speak English and has, on average, a 10th grade education. However, when illegal immigrants move to an economically depressed area that has a high proportion of Americans without a lot of education filling the existing jobs, there will be trouble. However, since this is largely NOT the case in this country, I continue to think that the current rate of immigration (including the illegal immigration - although I agree that it's "wrong") is being well-absorbed by the economy and that few people are actually losing their jobs over it. Massive illegal immigration to Appalachia = trouble, while massive illegal immigration to California largely has NOT led economic tumult.
I take exception to your comments concerning the loss of jobs and/or wages brought about by millions of illegal workers flooding our nation. I do so because I am one of those Americans who has 'taken the hit' for the last 20 years. I grew up in the construction trades, and was raised at a time when being a journeyman in ANY trade was considered a middle-class job and one a man could be proud of.

I've watched as wages in the trades have dropped 40-50% over the last 20 years, and the quality of workmanship has declined right along with them. You can't even walk onto a jobsite these days with an expectation of employment UNLESS you speak Spanish AND are willing to work for peanuts.

The latest estimates are that illegal labor has led to over $200 BILLION in lost and lowered wages for American workers ANNUALLY!

Too many of you folks just don't have a frigging CLUE what the 'blue collar man' has been put through, yet you spout off about it like it's no big deal. I'll tell you something, and it ain't a secret. When you destroy a man's ability to support his family, when you take HIS 'American Dream' and grind it under your heel in the name of corporate profit, and when you dismiss his legitimate complaints as inconsequential, you create one VERY PISSED OFF AMERICAN!!!
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