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Old 07-10-2008, 01:02 AM
 
307 posts, read 459,200 times
Reputation: 111

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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
I think you are probably middle of the road and not given passionately to either persuasion. Having said this, I am sure you do agree with my points now.

If you love all cultures and being abroad you probably see the value in learning foreign languages, but you might personally not want to do this. However, as our world shrinks, I think it's a fine idea. The Chinese and Indians will do just fine without our learning their languages, but if you want to, knock yourself out. I, OTOH, plan to perfect my Spanish so that I can use in it my job and gain a competitive advantage (I will not be easily replaceable as I will be providing hands on service so they cannot outsource what I do).

FWIW, there are different ways of breaking down who speaks what and how many...

Most Widely Spoken Languages

It's kind of interesting.
Personally I would love to learn a foreign language but I am unable to (probably due to certain learning disabilities I have) Trust me I have spent over two months in Mexico and picked up a dozen or so words (YES I TRIED). My last GF for a year and a half was native Thai and tried. She says I'm hopeless but will admit I did my best.


By all means. If you love learning Spanish. LEARN IT AS BEST YOU CAN. (If I ever meet you in Baja you can help me out ) It will help you in many ways. As I said many times in my post, I feel other skill sets are MORE valuable then Spanish. NOT that Spanish has no value. Same as if I said "C" is a better language for getting jobs then "Delphi". Sorry to any non computer Geeks out there.

I just try to be realistic, and not go to extremes, nor expect doom and gloom. I heard the same talk in the 80’s. Japan will take over. Learn Japanese, etc. OK they took over in the Anime department, but no doom and gloom. Same in my opinion will happen here. Hispanic population will slowly grow but assimilate as did the Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc. They will learn are ways, incorporate the BEST of there culture into ours (NO TACO BELL DOES NOT COUNT). and become Americans. Some Jobs will be out sourced, we may even suffer a depression, but we will recover, and continue to develop new products and technologies.

It may all in fact become meaningless depending on if certain technology comes about. I don’t want to get into a future tech discussion here, but If you know what I mean then you may well see why much of what many think is going to happen, including learning more then one language, may become meaningless and a non issue.



Random

Last edited by RandomU; 07-10-2008 at 01:31 AM..
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Maryland Eastern Shore
969 posts, read 2,466,823 times
Reputation: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
It has been noted that the assimilation of the Irish, Jews, Italians and somewhat Germans took 2 to 3 generations..which is exactly what Hispanics take today. I have posted the links to the articles and graphs many times before.



Assimilation, past and present | Public Interest | Find Articles at BNET
You missed the point - while my Grandparents forever felt more comfortable conversing between each other in the language of their native born country the FIRST thing they did was learn ENGLISH.

It did not take two (my parents) or three (ME) generations to learn ENGLISH.

I don't understand people who immigrate to a certain country expecting THAT country to learn THEIR language before they feel compelled to learn the language of the country they CHOSE to move to.

And I am tired of funding their refusal - don't wish to learn ENGLISH - fine - don't drive (the test is in ENGLISH) - don't vote (the ballot is in ENGLISH)- don't work as a telephone operator (I don't want to push ONE for ENGLISH)- don't work where I need to understand you. Because I WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK ENGLISH AND EXPECT IT TO BE SPOKEN BACK TO ME. I am done accomodating a culture that has had ample opportunity offered to them through ESOL classes and after school programs to learn the language of this country.

Should I move to Mexico - I will gladly learn Spanish
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,704,952 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomU View Post
I don't define myself as a conservative. Nor a liberal. I'll let you decide.


Abortion. Don't like it but it should be a woman's choice. (liberal Position)

Guns. Own several. (Conservative)

Death Penalty. Applied Disproportionately to minorities and Innocent people are executed. (Liberal)

Marijuana. Never touch the stuff. 30% of my friends do and I believe it should be decriminalized. (Liberal)

Immigration. Companies who hire ILLEGAL are BAD. Legal immigration I have no problem with. (???)

Religion. Agnostic who believes both sides step on each other way to much.

Food. I love ALL ethnic food and cultures and would love to spend more time abroad. Calling me ethnocentric is a joke.

I can go on if need be. Do you think I am conservative/liberal/or other.

Random
You and I have very similar values...........

As for movin'on; it is nothing more than an arrogant Troll who will likely be receiving a visit from either the FBI, IRS or ICE. soon.

I have no respect for faux 'Liberals' who would rather support lawbreakers (Andrade comes to mind) vs. American citizens/green card holders.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,704,952 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasonville View Post
You missed the point - while my Grandparents forever felt more comfortable conversing between each other in the language of their native born country the FIRST thing they did was learn ENGLISH.

It did not take two (my parents) or three (ME) generations to learn ENGLISH.

I don't understand people who immigrate to a certain country expecting THAT country to learn THEIR language before they feel compelled to learn the language of the country they CHOSE to move to.

And I am tired of funding their refusal - don't wish to learn ENGLISH - fine - don't drive (the test is in ENGLISH) - don't vote (the ballot is in ENGLISH)- don't work as a telephone operator (I don't want to push ONE for ENGLISH)- don't work where I need to understand you. Because I WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK ENGLISH AND EXPECT IT TO BE SPOKEN BACK TO ME. I am done accomodating a culture that has had ample opportunity offered to them through ESOL classes and after school programs to learn the language of this country.

Should I move to Mexico - I will gladly learn Spanish
As you stated.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,896 posts, read 12,291,350 times
Reputation: 2536
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Oh come on! Don't play games with me. Surely you have heard of the comic book style 'guide for illegal immigrants' published by the Mexican Government?

(Good Lord)
FOXNews.com - Mexico Provides Guide to Illegal Immigration - U.S. & World

Here is the cover:



Isn't that nice? Note how they make sure Mexican illegal aliens in the US know to immediately head for one of the 46 (or is it 47?) Mexican Consulates in the US so they can learn about all their 'rights' and what benefits they can collect.

That is garbage, no idea where you got that. I lived in Mexico for a year and it's not like that at all.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Central NJ, USA
218 posts, read 393,224 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Whatever. When I apply to grad school next year I already have a leg up and ONLY because I speak Spanish. Well, an MBA doesn't hurt either. It's common sense that the more skills a person has to offer, including foreign languages, the more marketable that person is.

Go ahead in your little ethnocentric world thinking the US is all that and that you don't have to pay any attention to anyone else. See how far that gets you down the road. It's only a matter of time (and it's probably already happened) that your little SQL and accounting jobs have already been OUTSOURCED to India (courtesy of MBAs who made that call), and I know you don't speak their language. Good luck.
Movin -

my responses have long since rolled off the radar, but the point I was trying to make was this - few people are arguing that Americans should not learn a second language. What is being questioned is why that language ought to be Spanish, and whether Obama is making a real, utilitarian suggestion or simply pandering. I fall into the latter camp.

Most of the arguments you raise - intellectual curiosity, leg up in the job market, etc. - apply to any language, and indeed are more applicable to other languages (e.g., Mandarin, Arabic, Hindi). I tried to make the point that the choice of Spanish in the near term more than anything else will enable one to speak with day labourers and not much else. Given the economic realities of the world and in particular, the US, I have not yet seen a single, valid counter-argument to that point. You're welcomed to try.

Second, the argument that "Spanish speakers" will be the majority in the US in 2050 (or whatever year) ignores history and reality - that as the offspring of Spanish speakers proliferate, they are likely to at first be fluent in Spanish and English, later holding on to vestiges of Spanish, and eventually losing their Spanish ability. That has been the model, and I do not really see it changing.

Third, I don't know if Spanish will overtake English as the second most spoken language. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But assuming it's true, what is the number one language? Mandarin. In 10 years, 20, 30, what percentage of our trade and diplomatic interactions will be with countries where Chinese is spoken, as opposed to Spanish? Is there anyone who seriously thinks that Mexico is going to become a more significant world player than China? Why, if given the choice to learn Spanish or Mandarin, would I opt for Spanish?
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Maryland Eastern Shore
969 posts, read 2,466,823 times
Reputation: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
Why, if given the choice to learn Spanish or Mandarin, would I opt for Spanish?
So you can ask where the toaster aisle is at Kmart?

So you can understand and communicate with the voice coming from the drive-up window at McDonalds?

I may be missing some others - but for now - I will continue my resistance and vote for the people who WANT ENGLISH as the official language of the USA.

Speak what you want at home - but the nation's business, industry, and government should transact in only ONE language - English.

Edited to add link to vote:
http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvo...hp?cs_id=V3834

Last edited by Grasonville; 07-10-2008 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:14 AM
 
3,807 posts, read 7,271,605 times
Reputation: 4984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
Movin -

my responses have long since rolled off the radar, but the point I was trying to make was this - few people are arguing that Americans should not learn a second language. What is being questioned is why that language ought to be Spanish, and whether Obama is making a real, utilitarian suggestion or simply pandering. I fall into the latter camp.

Most of the arguments you raise - intellectual curiosity, leg up in the job market, etc. - apply to any language, and indeed are more applicable to other languages (e.g., Mandarin, Arabic, Hindi). I tried to make the point that the choice of Spanish in the near term more than anything else will enable one to speak with day labourers and not much else. Given the economic realities of the world and in particular, the US, I have not yet seen a single, valid counter-argument to that point. You're welcomed to try.

Second, the argument that "Spanish speakers" will be the majority in the US in 2050 (or whatever year) ignores history and reality - that as the offspring of Spanish speakers proliferate, they are likely to at first be fluent in Spanish and English, later holding on to vestiges of Spanish, and eventually losing their Spanish ability. That has been the model, and I do not really see it changing.

Third, I don't know if Spanish will overtake English as the second most spoken language. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But assuming it's true, what is the number one language? Mandarin. In 10 years, 20, 30, what percentage of our trade and diplomatic interactions will be with countries where Chinese is spoken, as opposed to Spanish? Is there anyone who seriously thinks that Mexico is going to become a more significant world player than China? Why, if given the choice to learn Spanish or Mandarin, would I opt for Spanish?
Looking at his recent flip-flopping on a number of issues, I would say he was pandering for the Mexican vote. Regardless of why he said it, it's no business for him to tell Americans what foreign language they should learn. For many people, it was just a dumb thing to say. For me, it's an insult. It's like telling illegals, "you have won. This is not only your country. But we will learn your language as well."
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:30 AM
 
7,020 posts, read 9,918,041 times
Reputation: 1094
Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
You can choose to believe this, but you would be better served by learning Spanish.
Why? I have no future plans to illegally immigrate to or visit South America or any other spanish speaking country. Nor does my profession require that I have any dealings with non English speaking people. What ever happened to respect for the culture and language of the host country?

The majority of my respectful, culturally assimilating, ENGLISH SPEAKING immigrant neighbors are from the middle east and I am willingly absorbing all that I can about their cultures and learning Urdu as my second language. I refuse to learn spanish to appease the invaders. I will not be forced to learn a language I have grown to hate the sound of.

As long as I can press 2 for English and get my money out of the bank or get a customer service representative when I need one via the telephone, that's good enough for me.
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,070 posts, read 15,517,882 times
Reputation: 5293
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubsMom View Post
Why? I have no future plans to illegally immigrate to or visit South America or any other spanish speaking country. Nor does my profession require that I have any dealings with non English speaking people. What ever happened to respect for the culture and language of the host country?

The majority of my respectful, culturally assimilating, ENGLISH SPEAKING immigrant neighbors are from the middle east and I am willingly absorbing all that I can about their cultures and learning Urdu as my second language. I refuse to learn spanish to appease the invaders. I will not be forced to learn a language I have grown to hate the sound of.

As long as I can press 2 for English and get my money out of the bank or get a customer service representative when I need one via the telephone, that's good enough for me.
Can you provide a number of an American business that requires you to press 2 for English?

Last edited by Mach50; 07-10-2008 at 09:51 AM..
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