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Old 08-27-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,200,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
That's nice, except Chicagonut wrote the second one, not me. Rest assured, I still think you should learn to speak Spanish.
My mistake....at least in the user name department
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Old 08-27-2009, 05:06 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,033,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Nobody "chose" their language. They were born into it. And Spanish is equally foreign to this side of the world as English. Both languages were created by white europeans. So what is the big deal? How could English be "superior" to Spanish or vice versa? Obviously this is not a language issue...it's a race issue.


The fact of the matter is that white americans are declining in numbers while latinos (legal and not, although more ARE legal) is increasing. The race in decline feels threatened by the race on the rise. But regardless of what is right or wrong, there will be more and more Spanish spoken in this country with a corresponding decline in English.

Also, the world system creates a dynamic that encourages illegal immigration. The entire world can't be 1st world, the world cant' support it. So there will always be winners in the core and loosers in the periphery. As long as such a system is in place, people from the periphery will try to get into the core. The same thing happens in Europe with people immigrating illegaly from the Middle East and Africa in huge numbers.

The point of my rant is to put the hate, racism and superiority complex away; it does everyone a diservice. Illegals are unoffically encouraged to come simply because that's how the world works. They are not all inherently criminal, evil people and the majority are actually legal. And rather than fight against the waves which you cannot stop, flow with the waves. You will profit in the end instead beating your head against a brick wall until your skull cracks. Finally, be open. Your way is not the only way, nor is it necessarily the best way. Being flexible and accepting of change is the best way to make a better future for everyone.

Well, that is a load of self congratulatory crap if I've ever heard it.

I never said English is superior to Spanish. English is however, the dominant - from the inception of this country to the present time - language of the land. And that should be respected just as Spanish is the dominant language of Mexico and French is the dominant language of France. To move to another country whether legally or not and then refuse to learn the dominant language because your particular ethnic group has large numbers is rude, arrogant and in the end self defeating.
Where you see latinos on the rise I see latinos happily marching off to their ghettos under the banner of racial unity. Melting pot? Not for the new immigrants of hispanic descent. And that is a shame for them as well as for the rest of us. Oh, and somehow you seem to be under the impression that the US is made up of white people and hispanics only. You seem to forget the blacks, Asians, Middle Easterns, African immigrants all of whom have their own languages, cultures and pride. Yet they assimiliate. Because of smaller numbers or because they see the way to prosperity for themselves and their children is to learn English and mingle with the rest of US citizens of all colors.

This sense of 'theres a lot of us so kiss our collective azzes whitey' thing is so incredibly sad and short sighted. You don't benefit your own cause or your own people by encouraging them to not learn English and to cling to the cultural mores of lands that were so crappy they had to leave them.

And last but not least - language is a unifier. Without a common language how can there be possibly be common ground? There can't. Again I am back to this idea that some hispanic immigrants (or their lobbyists/apologists) have that self segregation is synonomous with ethnic pride. It isn't. It is a way to keep the serfs in their place. That this is ignored/glossed over by the very people who profess allegiance to these Spanish only immigrants baffles me.
Lets face it - the racists here are those that want to keep the latinos in their monolingual place. That would be you.

Last edited by camping!; 08-27-2009 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Not the holocaust, but the hate speech that lead to the holocaust. It would seem many of you equate the ability and desire to speak Spanish with all that is wrong with our country. Well, it ain't so.

But I like your analogy... that way we get to eat each other in Stalingrad before we expel the foreign invaders, just like on web forums.
Well; much of the growing hatred against Hispanics as a group was provoked by the antics of the pro amnesty enablers------------remember the illegal immigrants' 'rights' rallies back in May 2006? That was my 'tipping point' against illegal immigration---------think Pearl Harbor.

The USA is now pissed............and, angering us is not good for one's safety---------if here illegally.

Again it is high time for those illegal alien criminals (of any race/ethnicity) to leave the USA-----------or else (within US law).
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:20 PM
 
74 posts, read 256,724 times
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Found this on-line which could help anwer why it is good to learn Spanish:

Quote:
A global language


Few languages cover the globe as thoroughly as Spanish does today. A century ago, about 60 million people spoke Spanish. Today, nearly 400 million people speak Spanish as their primary language and another 100 million speak it as their second language.



Europe has 57 million Spanish speakers, including 40 million in Spain. The United States alone has more than 35 million Spanish speakers, more than 60 percent more than a decade ago. . By 2050, half of the country is expected to be able to speak Spanish.


Growing opportunities


As the number of Spanish speakers increases, so does the demand for professionals proficient in the language. Bi-lingual graduates have always been in high demand in international business, diplomacy, and development agencies but the need for this skill is growing.


A wider variety of professions including business and commerce, law and communications are actively seeking employees who can speak Spanish. The same trend can also be found in the fields of education, medicine, and many service industries.


Experts believe it is trend that will continue for some time to come as economic integration via the European Union, NAFTA and other Inter-American trade agreements promise to continue to build ties between English and Spanish-speaking countries.
Seems the US could be behind the times when it comes to mandatory learning of languages. Did you know Panama and Costa Rica which are increasing trade with China are thinking, if they have not already done, on make Mandarin mandatory in there schools. In Panama and Costa Rica, english has a foreign language is currently mandatory in primary and secondary schools. So they will be adding another mandatory language with Mandarin.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Nobody "chose" their language. They were born into it. And Spanish is equally foreign to this side of the world as English. Both languages were created by white europeans. So what is the big deal? How could English be "superior" to Spanish or vice versa? Obviously this is not a language issue...it's a race issue.


The fact of the matter is that white americans are declining in numbers while latinos (legal and not, although more ARE legal) is increasing. The race in decline feels threatened by the race on the rise. But regardless of what is right or wrong, there will be more and more Spanish spoken in this country with a corresponding decline in English.

Also, the world system creates a dynamic that encourages illegal immigration. The entire world can't be 1st world, the world cant' support it. So there will always be winners in the core and loosers in the periphery. As long as such a system is in place, people from the periphery will try to get into the core. The same thing happens in Europe with people immigrating illegaly from the Middle East and Africa in huge numbers.

The point of my rant is to put the hate, racism and superiority complex away; it does everyone a diservice. Illegals are unoffically encouraged to come simply because that's how the world works. They are not all inherently criminal, evil people and the majority are actually legal. And rather than fight against the waves which you cannot stop, flow with the waves. You will profit in the end instead beating your head against a brick wall until your skull cracks. Finally, be open. Your way is not the only way, nor is it necessarily the best way. Being flexible and accepting of change is the best way to make a better future for everyone.
The fact is that English was chosen as the de facto language of this country. It isn't about superiority. It is about honoring the "chosen" language of this country of which the majority speak. It has nothing to do with race.

Whites are breediing at replacement levels unlike Hispanics who think it macho to breed as many as possible with no thought as to how they will support them or how a huge population affects our invironment. The fact is that combining that with the number of illegal aliens from Mexcio and other Latin countries just compounds the population problem. Of course it is a concern is that irrational? I don't think so! What country wants to be overwhelmed with millions of illegal aliens and thereby changing the natural demographics and culture of their country? Can't answer that logically, can you? So you are claiming then that Hispanic-American citizens will change the language of this country? Why would they? They even have to be able to speak English to become citizens. What you are suggesting then is racism on the part of Hispanic-Americans.

All countries would be wise to deter illegal immigration into their countries or they will also lose their natural identities, culture and language. Is this something you are in favor of? Would you be thrillled to see Mexico overwhelmed by Chinese illegal aliens and therefore become Asian in identity rather than Hispanic?

The hate and racism is on the part of the arrogant invaders. They don't give a damn about this country's natural demographics, its culture or its language or its laws or even its citizen's right to control its borders and sovereignty. No sir, you have the racist, hate shoe on the wrong foot here.

No, the "world" doesn't work that way. Every country has immigration laws and they have a right to enforce them. "Go with the flow"? LOL! You're kidding, right? Will you also go with the flow if down the road the eastern torrorists take over this country and impose their religion and customs on us or you will die?

This isn't about change but respect for our immigration laws because they are there in the best interests of this country and its citizen just like every other country. How the hell would we benefit by changing our national identity through illegal immigration? We don't profit from it now! We are subsidizing their healthcare and education and all the rest of their social needs. They don't pay in enough taxes to cover their costs. When will you be happy, when we have millions more illegal aliens in our country and we are all fighting for the last scrap of food, breathable air, housing, and natural resouces. Want to be stacked in like sardines like India is? We would go from a first world country to a third world one in a hurry. We already have 413 patients to every doctor. What do you want, 1,000 or more to every doctor? Good Lord, think willl you? You libs are so far out of touch with reality.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:45 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ounce View Post
Found this on-line which could help anwer why it is good to learn Spanish:

Seems the US could be behind the times when it comes to mandatory learning of languages. Did you know Panama and Costa Rica which are increasing trade with China are thinking, if they have not already done, on make Mandarin mandatory in there schools. In Panama and Costa Rica, english has a foreign language is currently mandatory in primary and secondary schools. So they will be adding another mandatory language with Mandarin.
This is all quite nice....and of course it's "good" to learn Spanish. I learned it myself, out of neccessity, about 40 years ago. It's "good" to learn ANYTHING.

But those Central Americans you refer to who are learning English..and now Mandarin...are learning it because, apparently, they think it's a 'good choice' and makes economic sense...NOT because a pandering, double-talking politician, in the 'heat' of a speech, TELLS them they 'should'...And they are NOT learning English...OR Mandarin...because an angry, self-serving, ethnocentric bunch of illegal immigrants from the USA...or from China...has shown up in their countrie(s), making a 'squawk', and DEMANDING they learn it. That's where your analogy falls short.

Americans can get very 'huffy' when told what they SHOULD or MUST do, by people who obviously have no interest in doing what THEY should do...i.e., immigrate here LEGALLY, and once here, set out to LEARN ENGLISH, as a form of respect, AND for their own benefit in our society.

There's nothing wrong with learning ANY language....but why must it be Spanish, instead of Japanese, Tagalog or Swahili? If, as 'illegal apologists' insist, illegal immigrants ARE assimilating smoothly into American society, they MUST be learning English....right? So why must Americans learn Spanish....as opposed to Russian, or Farsi? Is it possible that Hispanic illegals are NOT making an effort to assimilate, and that they feel it's just easier to demand we Americans assimilate to THEM? Why the push for 'Spanish'?, if I may ask?
....assuming, of course, that we're all in agreement here, and that illegal immigrants ARE trying their best to assimilate.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ounce View Post
Found this on-line which could help anwer why it is good to learn Spanish:

Seems the US could be behind the times when it comes to mandatory learning of languages. Did you know Panama and Costa Rica which are increasing trade with China are thinking, if they have not already done, on make Mandarin mandatory in there schools. In Panama and Costa Rica, english has a foreign language is currently mandatory in primary and secondary schools. So they will be adding another mandatory language with Mandarin.
Since English is the dominant language in the world; I see no reason to mandate any other language being taught. Although; I have no problem in offering additional languages to public school students as electives
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,071,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Yes and no.

Since I have no desire to even visit Mexico and the language of the USA is English--------I see no reason to learn Spanish.

As it is; most Mexicans here legally already know English---------it is basically only the illegal aliens (who have no business being here in the first place) are are monolingually Spanish.
Nowhere in my post is their the requirement to do so. If you wish to live in a state who conducts most of its international trade with Mexico and not learn English, that is perfectly up to you.

No need to give economic arguments for any such decision since they would be rather weak. However, on the issue of free choice, it is within your rights not to learn anything that is not necessary.

As to your lack of desire not to visit Mexico, that too is your choice. It is however, a beautiful country.

Yes, the language of the US is English. Yes, most (50%+) legal immigrants know English. And yes, most illegals from Mexico or Central America speak Spanish and perhaps some local language (if from Central America or Southern Mexico)

As to them not having any business here. Well, I suppose they are trying to provide for their families too. Something I wish more Americans would show similar dedication. But, of course, as a sovereign nation we have the right to seal our borders.

S.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
2,880 posts, read 5,071,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
We don't need to learn Spanish to ensure leadership in this country. It would make much more sense to learn Chinese since they practically own this country.

If Obama made this statement in a border state, it is obvious that they all have a high percentage of illegal alien Spanish speakers. Hispanic citizens are usually bi-lingual so why the need to learn Spanish to communicate with them? No, it is totally about Obama and other PC idiots who think we should learn the language of the invaders to accomodate them. Ain't gonna happen!
1) Our two biggest trading partners by far are Canada and Mexico. Mexico buys far more American products than China. An individual with a desire to trade with Latin America would be foolish not to learn Spanish.

2) Nothing is obvious in politics. Going by the quote alone, there is nothing that suggests any more than friendly advice.

3) "it is obvious that they all have a high percentage of illegal alien Spanish speakers" this is nonsensical. Illegals do not vote and therefore are not a political target to sway.

4) The issue of Spanish is not one of communication, but one of economics. If you are in a immigrant-ladened communities, the decision not to learn the language of your clients would not be terribly sound economics.

5) Invaders?? Enough with the hyperbole!! Blame yourself and your neighbors and business owners for hiring illegals; for voting for politicians who have by policy and silent handshakes with certain industries have invited illegals to pour over our borders.

6) Accommodate them? I am talking about ensuring the survival of the US as an economic power.


It is not 1989 but 2009. Americans need to re-develop the toughness, competitiveness and optimism of its own immigrant roots. Complacency is a stepping stone to economic malaise. And it usually starts with finger pointing rather than a look look at oneself and the realization that we need to reform ourselves .

We have grown fat. Scapegoating the immigrant is a red herring. The problems are with the natives and our choices: to want everything without working extra hard for it and without paying for it. The immigrant debates are sideshows to what truly ails us: global competition and our unwillingness to go toe to toe in economics.

S.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
1) Our two biggest trading partners by far are Canada and Mexico. Mexico buys far more American products than China. An individual with a desire to trade with Latin America would be foolish not to learn Spanish.

2) Nothing is obvious in politics. Going by the quote alone, there is nothing that suggests any more than friendly advice.

3) "it is obvious that they all have a high percentage of illegal alien Spanish speakers" this is nonsensical. Illegals do not vote and therefore are not a political target to sway.

4) The issue of Spanish is not one of communication, but one of economics. If you are in a immigrant-ladened communities, the decision not to learn the language of your clients would not be terribly sound economics.

5) Invaders?? Enough with the hyperbole!! Blame yourself and your neighbors and business owners for hiring illegals; for voting for politicians who have by policy and silent handshakes with certain industries have invited illegals to pour over our borders.

6) Accommodate them? I am talking about ensuring the survival of the US as an economic power.


It is not 1989 but 2009. Americans need to re-develop the toughness, competitiveness and optimism of its own immigrant roots. Complacency is a stepping stone to economic malaise. And it usually starts with finger pointing rather than a look look at oneself and the realization that we need to reform ourselves .

We have grown fat. Scapegoating the immigrant is a red herring. The problems are with the natives and our choices: to want everything without working extra hard for it and without paying for it. The immigrant debates are sideshows to what truly ails us: global competition and our unwillingness to go toe to toe in economics.

S.
FYI: this is 2009, not 2007............many of the old beliefs about jobs that 'Americans won't do' have just been blown to smithereens by this de facto depression we are in.

The cold reality is we certainly do not need illegal aliens and their Anchor Babies------------especially now.

Besides: legal immigrants; Mexican or not, are much more likely to assimilate as it is.
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