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Old 07-09-2008, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,650,644 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig View Post
This constant distinguishing of "legal" and "illegal" is getting a little old. For any of you who have gone through the legal immigration process will know that illegally immigrating is 10 times cheaper and 100 times quicker and easier. We did it the legal way but for anyone who did it illegally, I can't blame them. I hear far less bickering about jaywalking, stealing internet from the neighbors and ripping the tag off of a mattress that wasn't purchased by you. All of these activities are illegal and as far as I'm concerned are just as unimportant as illegal immigration. None of these crimes directly affect you so they are best left alone.

I see countless posts about Hispanic immigrants refusing to learn English. How many people have you documented to fit into this category, honestly? I have come into contact with hundreds of Spanish speaking immigrants and not a single one let it be known that they were refusing to learn the English language. Once again, for anyone who has learned another language, it is extremely difficult if you didn't start at it at a young age. I've been speaking Spanish at a pseudo-fluent level for about 4 years now and I still constantly get made fun of for my thick "gringo" accent and grammar and vocabulary errors. It takes YEARS of studying and constant practice to master a language and this is something that affects all first generation immigrants from non-English speaking countries. My God, give them a break!

Finally, I might add that while English is the most widely spoken language in the US and it is the language used in the courts and government assemblies, etc. IT IS NOT THE COUNTRY'S OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. The United States of America does not have an official language. That being said, although it may annoy a large number of ignorant hicks, people speaking other languages are not failing to adhere to any type of language requirement.
You are correct: it is getting old correcting folks that there is actually a difference between following the law and flipping it off.

The cold reality is simply being caught/deported in the USA illegally may be an infraction on the first offence........second and subsequent arrests are Felonies------and, that is not counting things like ID theft (using false SSN's qualifies).

Bottom line: I do not want those losers in my nation. Mexico (the biggest source of illegals) needs to grow up and take responsibility for its 'little brown ones'-------funny how one seldom sees a White illegal from SOB here.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
5,893 posts, read 12,265,995 times
Reputation: 2526
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaGrrrrrl View Post
Ok, I have to quickly respond to this post - they are offered FREE classes to learn English, I have to pay for a college course if I want to learn a second language. Why can't they be respectful enough to learn it and at least teach their children to speak English so our tax dollars don't have to be spend in OUR public schools to give them a special class to teach them English! It's all about effort most don't even try!
A very large percentage of recent immigrants take advantage of these programs, my wife being one of them. However, a new language isn't something you learn overnight. My wife takes English class 3 days a week for 2 hours at a time. These classes are taught by volunteers and in many cases are not effective teachers. She has gone through an entire course and still is extremely hesitant to speak what she is learned because it embarrasses her to stumble over words and screw up pronunciation. Like I stressed in my last post, learning a foreign language is very difficult. Just because you hear somebody here speaking Spanish doesn't mean they don't know English or don't want to learn it. She continues to speak Spanish with other native Spanish speakers here since it is easier and less humiliating. I lived in Mexico for a year and hated trying to speak Spanish with other Americans, it made me feel stupid, so I only spoke English with them. It is the same thing here, it isn't a big deal so don't take offense to it.

Quote:
I will make a big deal over legal and illegal because I follow the law - our country has laws that is why it's such a nice place to live and if we all decided to not follow the law - like these people - it wouldn't be a nice place to live.
Ok hotshot, like you've never illegally downloaded an MP3 or jaywalked in your life. Give me a break.

Quote:
Read this article and tell me after this guy was deported and decided to come back would you want him living next to you? He just killed a 7 year old girl! It is important to follow the laws.
Suspect has a long criminal record - Salt Lake Tribune
I never backed up violent criminals. How can you possibly compare violent crimes with physically moving to another country? That's a pretty disgusting comparison.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Central NJ, USA
218 posts, read 392,700 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
Chinese has the most NATIVE speakers but people in most foreign countries are learning English and English is considered the international language. I say this as a Chinese American who is conversationally fluent in Chinese. I think despite China's increased importance, English is the most important language to learn and people in other countries should learn it.

In Mexico and other Latin American countries, the business classes all are fluent in English and Americans can speak in English when doing business south of the border. Most of the illegals come from the lowest segments of their home countries' populations. On a side note a lot of middle class people in Mexico and other Latin American countries embrace a lot of American culture along with their own traditions, while the illegals are the ones who insisit on "keeping their culture and language", not assimialtign and talking about Aztlan and La Raza.

Tom, on the whole a good post. As an aside, both my wife and I immigrated to this country (singapore), where a quasi-English is spoken widely in addition to whatever dialect is spoken at home.

What Obama is doing here is plain and simple pandering. As another poster said, NO ONE is questioning that learning a second (or third, fourth) language is a good idea. What is being questioned is why that language ought to be Spanish, the utility of which basically will allow you to give instruction to a bunch of guys you pick up outside Home Depot. I am sorry if that sounds racialist, but that is reality. The Spanish spoken by most of the Latinos in the US is not university-level Spanish, so good luck going from that to reading Cervantes. Spanish is NOT the language of business. Or diplomacy. Few people outside of Latin America and parts of Western Europe speak Spanish.

The big problem I think is not that the Spanish speakers do not want to learn English. The problem is that a lot of them do not speak Spanish particularly well, or can read/write it beyond a pretty primitive level. What is going unsaid a lot of the time is that far too many of this population has at best a "basic" education, and are functionally illiterate in their own language.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,650,644 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
Tom, on the whole a good post. As an aside, both my wife and I immigrated to this country (singapore), where a quasi-English is spoken widely in addition to whatever dialect is spoken at home.

What Obama is doing here is plain and simple pandering. As another poster said, NO ONE is questioning that learning a second (or third, fourth) language is a good idea. What is being questioned is why that language ought to be Spanish, the utility of which basically will allow you to give instruction to a bunch of guys you pick up outside Home Depot. I am sorry if that sounds racialist, but that is reality. The Spanish spoken by most of the Latinos in the US is not university-level Spanish, so good luck going from that to reading Cervantes. Spanish is NOT the language of business. Or diplomacy. Few people outside of Latin America and parts of Western Europe speak Spanish.

The big problem I think is not that the Spanish speakers do not want to learn English. The problem is that a lot of them do not speak Spanish particularly well, or can read/write it beyond a pretty primitive level. What is going unsaid a lot of the time is that far too many of this population has at best a "basic" education, and are functionally illiterate in their own language.
As you stated.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,065 posts, read 15,485,226 times
Reputation: 5288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron von Costume View Post
Tom, on the whole a good post. As an aside, both my wife and I immigrated to this country (singapore), where a quasi-English is spoken widely in addition to whatever dialect is spoken at home.

What Obama is doing here is plain and simple pandering. As another poster said, NO ONE is questioning that learning a second (or third, fourth) language is a good idea. What is being questioned is why that language ought to be Spanish, the utility of which basically will allow you to give instruction to a bunch of guys you pick up outside Home Depot. I am sorry if that sounds racialist, but that is reality. The Spanish spoken by most of the Latinos in the US is not university-level Spanish, so good luck going from that to reading Cervantes. Spanish is NOT the language of business. Or diplomacy. Few people outside of Latin America and parts of Western Europe speak Spanish.

The big problem I think is not that the Spanish speakers do not want to learn English. The problem is that a lot of them do not speak Spanish particularly well, or can read/write it beyond a pretty primitive level. What is going unsaid a lot of the time is that far too many of this population has at best a "basic" education, and are functionally illiterate in their own language.
That is BS and yes it does sound racist to say it too.

If you learn Spanish you will be able to communicate with many people on this side of the world, not just illegals.

But please go learn Mandarin "so you can communicate with all of the slave workers in China making Americans plastic crap"...*sarcasm*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
As you stated.
What? You agree with Baron that learning Spanish will only gain you the ability to talk to guys you pick up outside Home Depot?
You don't think learning Spanish opens any other doors except that?
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:30 AM
 
17,286 posts, read 24,988,854 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Probably not a bad idea at all, just as a personal choice (I learned it decades ago). Yet as a politician's 'blurb', I must say it's pretty 'dumb'. It could EASILY be twisted around to sound like maybe "we" should learn Spanish, because we can't depend on "them" to learn English...(if they DID, why would we 'need' Spanish?) Not a very 'bright' comment to make when you're trying to bring the voters together. Sounds like something Bush would say.
Don't worry. Somewhere a guy is amassing all of these Obamaisms into nice Sept-Nov political ads.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,650,644 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
That is BS and yes it does sound racist to say it too.

If you learn Spanish you will be able to communicate with many people on this side of the world, not just illegals.

But please go learn Mandarin "so you can communicate with all of the slave workers in China making Americans plastic crap"...


What you agree with Baron that learning spanish will only gain you the ability to talk to guys you pick up outside Home Depot? You don't think learning Spanish opens any other doors?
Actually; it may be better for Mexico to start phasing in English as an official language.

Especially if Mx does indeed explode into civil war and we (the USA) wind up with Nuevo Leon, etc. petitioning to join the the Union.

Side note: about the only thing that kept us from taking all of Mexico in 1848 was the fear in Washington that there would be many more potential slave states-------and, that the Mestizo/Indians would have been placed into involuntary servitude as well.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,065 posts, read 15,485,226 times
Reputation: 5288
If Americans learned Spanish:

1) We would unite most of the Western Globe
2) It would be easier to learn other Latin based languages like: French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian...
3) It will make you more valuable on your job.
4) Allow you to travel and speak to people in Spain, Mexico, Peru..etc.
5) Americans would finally be considered a bi-lingual country just like much of Europe.


Also believe it or not but many people from other countries learn Spanish as a second language to their countries official language. So you would be able to speak in Spanish with them too.

I was once on an Airplane to Australia and a French woman was asking if anyone new French, nobody did, but I asked her if she spoke Spanish and amazingly she did and I was able to help her.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Central NJ, USA
218 posts, read 392,700 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
That is BS and yes it does sound racist to say it too.

If you learn Spanish you will be able to communicate with many people on this side of the world, not just illegals.

But please go learn Mandarin "so you can communicate with all of the slave workers in China making Americans plastic crap"...*sarcasm*


What? You agree with Baron that learning Spanish will only gain you the ability to talk to guys you pick up outside Home Depot?
You don't think learning Spanish opens any other doors except that?

Let's set aside the inflammatory comments about "slave workers" (sic). I did not say that learning Spanish will "only" gain you the ability to talk to guys you pick up... I said the utility of learning Spanish will basically enable you to do that, and I stand by the comment. Of course learning Spanish will allow me to speak socially with hundreds of millions of people (the overwhelming majority of whom I will never come in contact with). That may enhance my quality of life if I am sitting at Dodger Stadium next to a guy who cannot speak Enlgish.

But we simply have to face reality. I would *love* to speak Spanish. And Russian. And Finnish. And Bengali. I am 40. It is unlikely. My son (with any luck) will speak at least a couple of languages. As he allocates his time, if he is smart, there will be some sort of utility assigned to his choices.

Let me put it bluntly. For foreign languages, do you honestly think it is better for him to lear Spanish as opposed to Russian? Mandarin? Arabic? WHY? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE MOST LIKELY USE OF SPANISH FOR HIM OR ANYONE ELSE IS GOING TO BE?

I say that because the data are pretty undeniably true - as immigrants come to the US and settle as neighbours, they tend to learn English, especially as they move up in the social structure. I don't have specific numbers, but I am willing to be that there is NO ONE in a high level corporate or any other position in this country who speaks solely Spanish. Thus, if he is going to be speaking Spanish to someone, I would bet that the odds are at least 50-50 that that person is not going to be the admissions officer at Harvard.

And as another reason to learn a foreign language, when he travels outside the US, which countries will it be helpful for him to know Spanish, again, as opposed to French, Mandarin, Arabic, any of the languages of India? I guess if he is in Germany, the odds are pretty low that he will need to use Spanish to communicate.

Your (and other) comments of this sort do little more than add a lot of heat and precious little light to the discussion. My point was a practical one, and I stand by the claim that, if Americans "should learn a second language," Spanish should be down the list.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Central NJ, USA
218 posts, read 392,700 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
If Americans learned Spanish:

1) We would unite most of the Western Globe
2) It would be easier to learn other Latin based languages like: French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian...
3) It will make you more valuable on your job.
4) Allow you to travel and speak to people in Spain, Mexico, Peru..etc.
5) Americans would finally be considered a bi-lingual country just like much of Europe.
Straw man arguments, virtually every one of them. NO ONE IS SAYING WE SHOULD NOT LEARN A SECOND LANGUAGE. And virtually every one of these points is true no matter whether the language is Spanish or Tagalog or Swahili or Afrikaans or whatever.
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