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Old 07-10-2008, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Northern VA (for now)
23,000 posts, read 31,942,334 times
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A Hispanic Population in Decline - washingtonpost.com
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanboy395 View Post
Good!

And; let that serve as a warning to any other racial/ethnic group who dares to come to the USA illegally and demands 'rights' which do not apply to lawbreakers.
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:24 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,272,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Good!

And; let that serve as a warning to any other racial/ethnic group who dares to come to the USA illegally and demands 'rights' which do not apply to lawbreakers.
I have to say: Besides the fact that AMC is going to slam you on this one, this actually COULD be interpreted as anti-Hispanic. Most of your posts are anti-ILLEGAL as opposed to anti-Hispanic, but this one kind of crosses the line.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:27 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I have to say: Besides the fact that AMC is going to slam you on this one, this actually COULD be interpreted as anti-Hispanic. Most of your posts are anti-ILLEGAL as opposed to anti-Hispanic, but this one kind of crosses the line.
I'm keeping an eye on things here...and you're pretty reasonable..but I'd tend to disagree with you on this one.. (remember, don't confuse 'grumpy' with 'wrong').

To the extent that any "racial/ ethnic group" (or any OTHER group...religious, maybe ?) comes to the US, illegally, and proceeds to "demand" rights to which it's not entitled, then that "group" is wrong..and will incur the wrath of the 'locals'.

If only PART of the group is illegal, then of course, its understood that the 'good guys' wouldn't be held in disfavor. In the case of Hispanics, obviously a large number these days are here illegally. Thinking people, of course, should point out that this isn't a condemnation of Hispanics...only a condemnation of a problem in which the 'offenders' are heavily Hispanic. And remember that a certain element does see Hispanics as a monolithic group, regardless of legal status. This happens on BOTH sides of the issue...and of course, if one sees himself as part of a group, then he takes personal offense at ANY criticism of ANY member of that 'group'.

You're probably right...this COULD be misinterpreted...but it shouldn't. And you're also right in your prediction that someone will "get slammed" for this...probably as soon as the person in question reads it. But he slams a LOT of people, so this will probably follow the usual pattern of "blanket, non-specific, across-the board slamming"....

Last edited by macmeal; 07-10-2008 at 05:55 PM..
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I have to say: Besides the fact that AMC is going to slam you on this one, this actually COULD be interpreted as anti-Hispanic. Most of your posts are anti-ILLEGAL as opposed to anti-Hispanic, but this one kind of crosses the line.
Bring it on!

BTW:

I met a Nordic White Mexican American today-------Spanish surname and all. I thought he was some variety of Scandinavian at first (blond hair/blue eyes).

He is extremely anti illegal immigration along with his Peruvian born wife. Said Latina is evidently Mestizo due to her catching flak courtesy of the pro illegals and being mistaken as an illegal. She came here legally and is now a US citizen-----and, despises illegal immigrants because she played it by the rules.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,088 posts, read 16,929,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I have to say: Besides the fact that AMC is going to slam you on this one, this actually COULD be interpreted as anti-Hispanic. Most of your posts are anti-ILLEGAL as opposed to anti-Hispanic, but this one kind of crosses the line.
I did not interpret his statement as anti-Hispanic. He made it clear he was referring to illegals of any ethnicity or racial group.

No problemo, methinks...
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:53 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,272,188 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'm keeping an eye on things here...and you're pretty reasonable..but I'd tend to disagree with you on this one.. (remember, don't confuse 'grumpy' with 'wrong').

To the extent that any "racial/ ethnic group" (or any OTHER group...religious, maybe ?) comes to the US, illegally, and proceeds to "demand" rights to which it's not entitled, then that "group" is wrong..and will incur the wrath of the 'locals'.

If only PART of the group is illegal, then of course, its understood that the 'good guys' wouldn't be held in disfavor. In the case of Hispanics, obviously a large number these days are here illegally. Thinking people, of course, should point out that this isn't a condemnation of Hispanics...only a condemnation of a problem in which the 'offenders' are heavily Hispanic. And remember that a certain element does see Hispanics as a monolithic group, regardless of legal status. This happens on BOTH sides of the issue...and of course, if one sees himself as part of a group, then he takes personal offense at ANY criticism of ANY member of that 'group'.

You're probably right...this COULD be misinterpreted...but it shouldn't. And you're also right in your prediction that someone will "get slammed" for this...probably as soon as the person in question reads it. But he slams a LOT of people, so this will probably follow the usual pattern of "blanket, non-specific, across-the board slamming"....
I appreciate that you think I'm reasonable; I think this was a reasonable response as well. However, I just don't see Mexicans/Hispanics coming to this country and demanding rights or claiming a right to be here. I see extremist groups that are largely Mexican-AMERICAN (keyword: American!!!) in membership driving a propoganda machine to get their "bretheren" from South of the Border rights, and citing questionable history as part of their argument on why these non-Americans should have a claim to United States land. As much as people get upset when I create (what many call a false and unnecessary) a separation between Mexicans from Mexico and Mexican-Americans from the United States, I think that it is necessary because in my observations, I have yet to hear Mexican nationals making any demands like the ones about which you all worry. The demands are coming from the mouths of Mexican-AMERICANS as if they are the speakers for Mexican nationals who want citizenship here. I don't think it's fair to take their word that they are the voice the "real" Mexicans who have immigrated here. Sure, the Mexican-American members of Mecha, La Raza, etc. may be legally exercising their political and free speech rights by trying to protect and extend more rights to "their people," but I just don't think it's accurate to say that this small and vocal minority is representative of how Mexican immigrants to this country think and feel. Sure, most illegal immigrants are Hispanic; sure, most illegal immigrants are from Mexico... but do you know what? These Mexican immigrants don't seem to feel the same way a small minority of angry and radical Mexican-Americans feel and thus I just don't feel comfortable agreeing with anyone's statement that "Mexicans" are demanding anything or claiming right to anything. This isn't about an ethnic group of "foreigners" claiming entitlement to American land, this is about a tiny group of AMERICANS masquerading as the spokespeople for these "foreigners" even if these "foreigners" don't even feel that way (and I don't think that they do). This may be confusing and I'm not saying that this is a fact; this is just what I have observed.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:44 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
I appreciate that you think I'm reasonable; I think this was a reasonable response as well. However, I just don't see Mexicans/Hispanics coming to this country and demanding rights or claiming a right to be here. I see extremist groups that are largely Mexican-AMERICAN (keyword: American!!!) in membership driving a propoganda machine to get their "bretheren" from South of the Border rights, and citing questionable history as part of their argument on why these non-Americans should have a claim to United States land. As much as people get upset when I create (what many call a false and unnecessary) a separation between Mexicans from Mexico and Mexican-Americans from the United States, I think that it is necessary because in my observations, I have yet to hear Mexican nationals making any demands like the ones about which you all worry. The demands are coming from the mouths of Mexican-AMERICANS as if they are the speakers for Mexican nationals who want citizenship here. I don't think it's fair to take their word that they are the voice the "real" Mexicans who have immigrated here. Sure, the Mexican-American members of Mecha, La Raza, etc. may be legally exercising their political and free speech rights by trying to protect and extend more rights to "their people," but I just don't think it's accurate to say that this small and vocal minority is representative of how Mexican immigrants to this country think and feel. Sure, most illegal immigrants are Hispanic; sure, most illegal immigrants are from Mexico... but do you know what? These Mexican immigrants don't seem to feel the same way a small minority of angry and radical Mexican-Americans feel and thus I just don't feel comfortable agreeing with anyone's statement that "Mexicans" are demanding anything or claiming right to anything. This isn't about an ethnic group of "foreigners" claiming entitlement to American land, this is about a tiny group of AMERICANS masquerading as the spokespeople for these "foreigners" even if these "foreigners" don't even feel that way (and I don't think that they do). This may be confusing and I'm not saying that this is a fact; this is just what I have observed.
While I'll concede the truth of most of what you say..and I'll agree that the "Aztlan" types are largely a product of American society...I still have to think the "Mexican" situation is in a class by itself, as far as immigrant groups go. (note I didn't say "Hispanic' but "Mexican').

While there are LOTS of immigrant groups and LOTS of illegals here in the US, in sheer numbers, as well as outspoken 'boldness', I believe the Mexican illegals stand alone. The sheer scale (roughly ten percent of Mexico is now HERE), the massive degree of 'interest' in the situation on the part of the Mexican government, and the breath-taking hypocrisy (Mexico insists WE do many things, which IT would NEVER agree to do).

There just isn't any parallel, IMHO, in any other situation, with MEChA, or with the serious pandering that goes on with most US officials toward illegal Mexicans, or with the Mexican government's frequent 'comments' on the situation of 'their' people here, with any other 'source country'. Mexico, in that sense, is pretty much unique.

I suppose this is inevitable, given the long border between a 'developing' nation and a "First World leader"..even THAT situation is pretty much unparalleled anywhere in the world. The much-touted "claim" of Mexico to much of the US Southwest adds even MORE controversy.
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
While I'll concede the truth of most of what you say..and I'll agree that the "Aztlan" types are largely a product of American society...I still have to think the "Mexican" situation is in a class by itself, as far as immigrant groups go. (note I didn't say "Hispanic' but "Mexican').

While there are LOTS of immigrant groups and LOTS of illegals here in the US, in sheer numbers, as well as outspoken 'boldness', I believe the Mexican illegals stand alone. The sheer scale (roughly ten percent of Mexico is now HERE), the massive degree of 'interest' in the situation on the part of the Mexican government, and the breath-taking hypocrisy (Mexico insists WE do many things, which IT would NEVER agree to do).

There just isn't any parallel, IMHO, in any other situation, with MEChA, or with the serious pandering that goes on with most US officials toward illegal Mexicans, or with the Mexican government's frequent 'comments' on the situation of 'their' people here, with any other 'source country'. Mexico, in that sense, is pretty much unique.

I suppose this is inevitable, given the long border between a 'developing' nation and a "First World leader"..even THAT situation is pretty much unparalleled anywhere in the world. The much-touted "claim" of Mexico to much of the US Southwest adds even MORE controversy.
Hindsight being 20/20: we should have taken all of Mexico in 1848---------God knows that the indigenous' people would be better off as English speaking US citizens.
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Old 07-12-2008, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,144 posts, read 3,255,330 times
Reputation: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Hindsight being 20/20: we should have taken all of Mexico in 1848---------God knows that the indigenous' people would be better off as English speaking US citizens.
Amen, the population down there would have ended up being half of what it is today. That border with Guatemala would have been much easier to deal with. (alot of the natives probably would have been wiped out however, since the English really had no use for them like the Spaniards did). More slaves would have been brought over and the mestizo/indian population and the black population would be about equal by our time. This country would have ended up a very different and probably even more powerful nation.
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