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I dont give a rats rear anymore, I am so tired of the PC crap it just gets us into bad situations!!!. I have talked to lots of them and they have expressed this. It is true, just as I am sure many want to be citizens, people need to deal with it.
I believe this might require a Constitutional amendment on a couple of fronts. It's not required that persons entering the U.S. become citizens, only that they enter legally. Under American freedoms, it is an individual's choice to become a full-fledged citizen. This is what sets America apart from places like Franco's Spain. Personally, I'd rather have "volunteer" Americans than "conscripted" ones.
To work in the U.S. you are required to be any of the following: 1) a U.S. Citizen of legal age to work. 2) A legal resident alien of legal age to work. 3) Legally residing in the U.S. with a permit to work (i.e. HB2 visa).
You missed one, 4)sneak over the border buy a SSI number from Maria and get a job at the company where Jose works.
What I meant was Mexicans that come here to work that only want to work need to apply for “guest worker” and all others need to come here with the sole intention of becoming American citizens. We don’t need to conscript workers any more, seems there was a war or something ending that sort of thing.
The current system doesn’t work. H2B’s are for farm workers, but more and more employers are using illegal workers instead.
Bottom line, guest worker for those that only want to work here. Create a federal system for those who want to come here to work and become citizens. Make it impossible for employers to hire outside of this system.
Or keep coming up with bureaucratic obstacles that keep things the way they are.
You missed one, 4)sneak over the border buy a SSI number from Maria and get a job at the company where Jose works.
That's illegal, and those who get caught are prosecuted and deported!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC
What I meant was Mexicans that come here to work that only want to work need to apply for “guest worker” and all others need to come here with the sole intention of becoming American citizens.
That's fine, but it changes the core essence of America. How does a departure from what America is and stands make America more American? Forgive me, but conceptually this doesn't make sense to me, though I understand your passion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC
The current system doesn’t work. H2B’s are for farm workers, but more and more employers are using illegal workers instead.
I know that HB2s are used for all sorts of professions, including high-tech. If they're used fraudulently, then penalties apply for those who get caught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC
Make it impossible for employers to hire outside of this system.
Make it impossible? That's a tall order. It's already illegal and those who get caught are prosecuted. It may not be enough, but it seems to me it's happening to the limits of our resources. What now?
That's why this subject is so hard. There are no easy answers. The current system can't keep up with itself and fails us in many respects. For this we need contingencies, i.e. making sure we don't create an underclass of unhealthy and uneducated millions living in our midst. If you want to understand what that's like, visit any one of the world's "mega cities," Nairobi, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta, Sao Paulo -- Mexico City.
Last edited by Winston Smith; 01-18-2007 at 05:02 PM..
tell ya what, we would find a hell of alot more if there would be daily raids on the construction sites !!!! And all those that come in for services, we can get those too and the ones standing in front of home depots and on the corners. I dont think enough is being done, I see raids every once in awhile, but that isnt enough. People really need to bust these employers too, and I mean hard.
Because many of the laborers that find work in these ways are assumed to be illegal, much of the work they find is "unofficial" (minor construction projects and other manual labor) thus there isn't likely to be document checks or records of their payment. Unless there is some other way to legitimately confirm that these laborers are illegal aliens, widespread raids would be violating the 4th amendment. If the government began overstepping their bounds in this way, any person of Hispanic descent might be targeted because they "look like an illegal" or they "get hired in front of Home Depot".
That's illegal, and those who get caught are prosecuted and deported! .
Really? All that happens is they are given a court date and they disappear. If they are deported they are back in the US the next day. LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by cre8
That's fine, but it changes the core essence of America. How does changing what America is and stands for going to make America more American? Forgive me, but conceptually this doesn't make sense to me, though I understand your passion.
That doesn’t change anything about America. Guest worker is no different than an H2B other than accepting Guest worker credentials track them and gives the government a location to send them if they lose their job. As in the past if someone wants to become an American they get in line. The difference in my proposal is the employers have to try to find US workers before requesting foreign ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cre8
I know that H2Bs are used for all sorts of professions, including high-tech. If they're used fraudulently, then penalties apply for those who get caught.
The problem is the farm employers that use H2B are bypassing them and using illegal workers. By doing this farmers that are using H2B workers can’t compete since they have to pay more for the same labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cre8
Make it impossible? That's a tall order. It's already illegal and those who get caught are prosecuted. It may not be enough, but it seems to me it's happening to the limits of our resources. What now? That's why this subject is so hard. There are no easy answers.
It’s only recently that some of these people are being prosecuted. The only ones being prosecuted are the ones that are using stolen SSI #’s. This has been a huge problem in CA for decades. It’s taken their migration to non border states to wake America up. Take a look at the statistics most of the really bad illegals have been deported and returned many times. It’s too easy for them to return and find jobs. If you have laws that can seize businesses and prosecute those that run them, but have a method in place to link up workers to these jobs that supposedly no American will do then the problem will take care of itself.
No argument from me, RedNC. As long as it's Constitutional and within our means to enforce, I'm for it. Where we need to think harder is when things become un-Constitutional and unenforceable.
Kiru as I respect your opinion, as well as every differing view. I believe someone in New Jersey, and someone in California could have very differing views. Why? I said some, not all. Because non-Latinos in California can have a much easier time getting acquainted with Latinos because of the much higher high population levels than say New Jersey. It gives us non-latino folks the ability to interact with them and understand their common culture beliefs of a hard work ethic and latino people being completely united between two countries. They help explain the many struggles from their homeland poverty to the U.S..
i don't think you need to be on a border state to see the impact of illegals. I see plenty up here. They all live in slums and leech off our welfare system. They don't speak English and expect you to understand them. You see 16 year olds toting their young children off to school, which we pay for. I fear to see what a border state is like!
And I would run for office but I'm not rich enough. No one would vote for me anyway. I have too many factors against me to win. Though I have lost most of my faith in the system anyway. I truly believe some sort of revolution/open protest, like the 60s, is the only way to change anything now. Perhaps we will get a good president in 2008, but a Democrat might legalize and a Republican will stay in Iraq. There doesn't seem to be a side I can root for.
As to my previous 9/11 comment. I was not trying to start a parallel conversation, merely point out my lack of faith in small scale actions to change anything.
Kiru, actually, you can. Small scale is EXACTLY where to start. Start really small, perhaps even your own block. I work for my neighborhood in Neighborhood Watch, and rally my nieghbors to fight bad things in our part of Los Angeles (a hellhole for all but the rich), be it getting rid of graffiti (I bypass the city system which is too slow, and go straight to Community Service (parolees) to clean up the stuff that takes sandblasters. Or, recently we won against a foreign national that wanted to skirt laws and build a giant duplex in an area that didn't allow it, and had greased palms to get a permit. We got an appeal on legal grounds that we itemized, and blocked him. David can fight Goliath and win. Unlike you, I personally don't want to be in politics, but I do want my city to be better. I'd rather complain and then do something about it rather than just complain.
Every local politician I've ever met started small, (unlike the rich U.S. senators.) Do stuff for community councils, get to know people and the system within which you want to work. If you're effective in changing things for the better, you'll even find backers eventually. (It's not all corruption. 20 years ago we even helped a woman beat some mighty corrupt politicians being greased to develop the old Howard Hughes' properties. Long story, includes rare modern instance of paid brutalization of a candidate, and I have inside info.)
Google community stuff that interests you, and go there after work/school/whatever. You can make a small difference, and if only everyone did, the world would be a better place. I'm posting this version of my pm to you in case you hadn't seen it.
On the negative side, I personally am overwhelmed by mean-spirited, law-breaking people who arrive from other countries to be mean-spirited and break laws here. I'm tired of being spit on by people hissing at me in Spanish when I'm a pedestrian. I'm tired of not being able to have conversations in English with most people I encounter in my own country. I'm tired of living in a place that used to resemble a reasonably nice quality of life for lower middle class Americans, only to now resemble "the slums, and leeching off the system" you quote in your NJ, except that I live in them here, thanks to illegals that my tax dollars support. So I must conclude that Los Angeles ever so desperately wants slums and leeching. Hence, my home of over five decades has proven it doesn't want American citizens who try to help make it better for everyone, just those who want it better for the slums and leeches.
i don't think you need to be on a border state to see the impact of illegals. I see plenty up here. They all live in slums and leech off our welfare system. They don't speak English and expect you to understand them. You see 16 year olds toting their young children off to school, which we pay for. I fear to see what a border state is like!
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I somewhat agree with you on the effects of non-Southwest states with illegal immigration. I still do not believe it's the same interaction or everyday noticeability though. They do not leech of the welfare system, much of their culture believes in a strong work ethic and not depending on the government. How do you know they expect you to understand them? Their are plenty of non-latino 16 years olds who have infants. Common guys, let's not start with the stereotypes. I live in California, and am perfectly fine.
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