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Old 07-12-2008, 03:29 PM
 
608 posts, read 882,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And GuyP is correct.

If paying proper wages means a (slight) drop in the living standards of the putative 'ruling class'---------tough.
Hmmm Sounds like Socialism or worse Communism both of which go against our individualistic ideals and capitalistic society.
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,704,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Hmmm Sounds like Socialism or worse Communism both of which go against our individualistic ideals and capitalistic society.
Uh; better a bit of 'Socialism' than anarchy------Mexico comes to mind.

Emissions laws, food inspection, mandatory education up till ca. age 16, etc. would all have been considered 'Socialism' 100 years ago.

Flip side: racism nas quite acceptable back then along with beating your wife if she 'disobeyed', etc.

Times change.

BTW: closing/locking at least our southern border is fast becoming essential due to security concerns.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:56 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,061,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
This may be true but are the legal citizens willing to move across the country to where the jobs are? While we in the US are a very mobile society there are still great numbers of us that refuse to move away from family and what is considered to be home. Location of job openings and available employable citizens are not always in the same place.
The guy down the street from me is a drywaller. Last year he spent three months down in Texas working over the winter. He also lives in a house worth over $270,000.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,180,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Hmmm Sounds like Socialism or worse Communism both of which go against our individualistic ideals and capitalistic society.
Gotta wave that bogeyman, how predictable. You must be one of those that's never broken a sweat to earn a living. That kind of thing must be 'beneath you'...
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Old 07-13-2008, 01:48 AM
 
608 posts, read 882,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
Gotta wave that bogeyman, how predictable. You must be one of those that's never broken a sweat to earn a living. That kind of thing must be 'beneath you'...
How about a response and state your case instead of clever comebacks. You know nothing about me or my background so speak with what you know not with what you assume. So back at you.
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Old 07-13-2008, 02:11 AM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,180,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
How about a response and state your case instead of clever comebacks. You know nothing about me or my background so speak with what you know not with what you assume. So back at you.
You support illegal employer's exploiting illegal worker's in the name of capitalism?? That's what it sounds like, based on your calling a living wage socialism or communism.

Since I do NOT know let me ask, have you ever held a job as an adult that required you to break a sweat?
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Old 07-13-2008, 02:36 AM
 
608 posts, read 882,730 times
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Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
You support illegal employer's exploiting illegal worker's in the name of capitalism?? That's what it sounds like, based on your calling a living wage socialism or communism.

Since I do NOT know let me ask, have you ever held a job as an adult that required you to break a sweat?
No I do not support the exploitation of illegal workers in the name of capitalism. I do believe in free market capitalism be it price of goods or wages.

We are not here to debate me but yes I have broken sweat, working many years in restaurants as busboy, dishwasher and cook while I went to college and paid my own tuition without the help of parents and little to no assistance from the government. No assistance because both parents worked and made too much for me to quality yet they were not able to help me. Of course I could have opted to not go to college and then later to continue my education but then again I was determined to not to have to work as a cook or other sweat bearing jobs the rest of my life as it was my choice.

So if you don't think that is back breaking sweat bearing work then I am sorry for you. If you are unhappy about where you are in this free market (capitalistic) society then too bad. The moment the government steps in and starts to dictate how much wages should be (other than minimum wage) or that you need to move to state X because that is where the jobs are and you are not allowed to collect because there IS work for your capable body in state X, will be the moment we hear the outcries of injustice by US citizens.
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Old 07-13-2008, 03:39 AM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,180,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
No I do not support the exploitation of illegal workers in the name of capitalism. I do believe in free market capitalism be it price of goods or wages.

We are not here to debate me but yes I have broken sweat, working many years in restaurants as busboy, dishwasher and cook while I went to college and paid my own tuition without the help of parents and little to no assistance from the government. No assistance because both parents worked and made too much for me to quality yet they were not able to help me. Of course I could have opted to not go to college and then later to continue my education but then again I was determined to not to have to work as a cook or other sweat bearing jobs the rest of my life as it was my choice.

So if you don't think that is back breaking sweat bearing work then I am sorry for you. If you are unhappy about where you are in this free market (capitalistic) society then too bad. The moment the government steps in and starts to dictate how much wages should be (other than minimum wage) or that you need to move to state X because that is where the jobs are and you are not allowed to collect because there IS work for your capable body in state X, will be the moment we hear the outcries of injustice by US citizens.
I could have sworn I asked that question with the caveat 'as an adult'. I'm glad that you went to college so you wouldn't have to work so hard. Too bad it didn't give you any perspective on American labor. If we were discussing the 'free market', (one not corrupted by 20 million illegal workers), we might even agree, but when we disrupt the natural law of supply and demand with all those 'workers', we put the long shaft to those workers who were in that free marketplace from the beginning. (Read that as Americans.)

It's too bad you haven't experienced those detrimental effects first-hand, it might make you less prone to throwing out bogeymen like Socialism or Communism in defense of greedy bastard employers.
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Old 07-13-2008, 03:49 AM
 
956 posts, read 2,652,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I strongly suspect that the official unemployment rate of 'only' 5.5% is due in part to many illegals self deporting since they are at the bottom of the food chain-----east to fire since they would not dare to try to collect benefits. If the above 'illegals' were indeed US citizens/green card holders-----I strongly suspect our unemployment rate would be upwards of 7% already.
For years Paul Craig Roberts has been stating that the actual number of unemployed able-bodied Americans of working age is around 9-10%. When I was unemployed I didn't show up as a statistic because I didn't collect welfare, and people who collected welfare but whose benefits are expired don't show up either.

In other words, the opposite of everything Steve Forbes says is the truth.
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Old 07-13-2008, 03:54 AM
 
608 posts, read 882,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPinestra View Post
I could have sworn I asked that question with the caveat 'as an adult'. I'm glad that you went to college so you wouldn't have to work so hard. Too bad it didn't give you any perspective on American labor. If we were discussing the 'free market', (one not corrupted by 20 million illegal workers), we might even agree, but when we disrupt the natural law of supply and demand with all those 'workers', we put the long shaft to those workers who were in that free marketplace from the beginning. (Read that as Americans.)

It's too bad you haven't experienced those detrimental effects first-hand, it might make you less prone to throwing out bogeymen like Socialism or Communism in defense of greedy bastard employers.
You didn't specify age. Let time I checked an adult is 18+ or 21+ if you want to include both ability to vote and drink alcohol. The period of my life I refer to is 18 - 25 which still qualify as adulthood. Hard work builds character and maturity. I worked, studied and slept during those years and was not a spring break brat which I am sure you assume me to be.

By the way... you cannot disrupt the "natural law" of supply and demand in a "free" market. You can only disrupt it in a controlled and regulated market. Hence the downfall of Communism and the trials and tribulations of Socialism.
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